Who is liable? Load bearing demolished accidentally

[Millypip91]

Hi there,

I am having a DIY disaster. We bought a 1930's semi in September. It's a 3 bed with a partially converted loft - loft was boarded and plastered, has electric and windows but was not officially converted with stairs etc. We had all our surveys done before buying and all was well.

We moved in and decided to make a bigger kitchen diner and get the wall between kitchen and dining room knocked through. We did our research and after a few quotes went for a reputable local building company who has their own structural engineers. We were assured by them that the wall was a stud wall and not load bearing so no building regs were required. Long story short they knocked down the wall and a crack appeared almost immediately in the newly decorated bedroom. We also noticed some worsening of hairline cracks in our recently re plastered bedroom ceiling. The builder thought it was just stress fractures and suggested that the ceiling was badly plastered before (by other tradesmen) so recommended plaster boarding and re-doing them. I had a bad gut feeling about this so instead I got a structural engineer to come out and assess the cracks. Unfortunately he informed us that the loft which was partially converted didn't meet building regs and all the previous owner had done was take the supporting beams out without putting extra supports in making the house structurally unsafe. Sadly this was not picked up in any of the surveys we had done. He also said that because of the lack of support in the loft the wall that was knocked down in the kitchen effectively was load bearing even though it appeared not to be. The builders didn't actually go in the loft so they didn't know about this but arguably they still knocked the wall down and told us it was fine so surely some of the blame lies with them. The previous owner did not declare any structural changes to the property so we already may have a case against her but I am wondering if I can pursue anything with the builders? Since it happened they did immediately come and put some beans back in the loft and temporary poles where the wall was up to secure everything but they are still trying to charge us a lot of extras for fixing the damage and I kind of expected that they would give us quite a hefty discount considering that they did knock it down. My other half doesn't seem to want to pursue anything against the builders and is trying to kind of keep them on side whilst they are still doing work and accessing our property but I am getting a bit peed off that they're not really being held accountable. Would love any advice x

The house wasn’t safe full stop. My priority would be to get the house safe asap and then sort out the financial mess/compensation.

This is incorrect. Confirmed by a chartered structural engineer

My non professional understanding from our lift conversion is that if you remove the cross beams in the pitched roof then the forces on the walls are pushing outwards with nothing remaining to pull them back together. I can see how removing an internal wall downstairs can exacerbate that but really the damage was done with the poor attic conversion.
you say the builders have structural engineers but did the actually survey the house? I’m assuming there are no drawings of the attic as it was done? If the builders didn’t do a full survey then I don’t think you can blame them for previous bad work.

Any builder would double check or they should it could have serious implications not just to the house but to the the people living in the house. If the house/walls collapsed and injured someone I am sure the builders would have to take responsibility for that too. The builder can not just take the structural engineers or your word they have a duty of care to make sure that all works they carry out are safe.

I would call Trading Standards and another building regulatorary body to flag this up and get advice. They need to stop working on people's houses tbh.

Totally agree with this. We took out a (solid) wall ourselves, and although we were certain it was non-loadbearing, we still got a surveyor. Before we did so, DH exposed all the relevant parts, including removing overhead floor boards and leaving the loft hatch open. The surveyor looked in the loft. As someone said upthread, it can be more complicated in identifying structural issues, and the homeowner might not be aware. He also gave us the required paperwork to confirm it was ok.

The builder can not just take the structural engineers or your word I think they can take the structural engineer's word. He is the expert they consulted. However, it might be that the OP has a claim against the builder, who would claim against the engineer. I would check first that the builder did in fact get in an engineer, as surely there would be paperwork. Hopefully, he did not assume that it was not loadbearing, because it was a stud wall, as this is certainly not 100% true.

The state of the roof when you purchased is a separate issue.

But a stud wall should never be (and can't safely be) load bearing can it??. It's plaster board, not brick. I mean it's great it's been managing for years but ultimately your house was very unsafe even before the builders removed this wall.
And if the builders had realised before removing the stud wall you would still have needed the stud wall removed and some sort of joist/beam installing.

Surely the whole point of the visit by the builders' structural engineer was to establish whether or not it was safe to take out the wall? And surely that means taking into account the whole house? His/her insurance, I would say.

This website is interesting. Seems stud walls can be load bearing, so yes maybe the builders should have taken mroe care

https://www.johnwebsterarchitecture.co.uk/2023/08/30/are-stud-walls-load-bearing/

Can you get your house insurance involved?

Sorry I missed that in the OP. Yes a stud wall cannot be safe to carry load. I am still suprised nobody flagged this up as an aside!

Yes a stud wall cannot be safe to carry load.
It's not that simple, which is why you need a surveyor.

Well of course it can carry some load.

A builder should have a grasp of building structures and of the amount of load/force, pull etc that the house can take at various points. They may employ a surveyor but surey they should look a what the surveyer has found and go through it before work takes place?!

A surveyor is not the same as a structural engineer. This type of thing should always be assessed by a structural engineer. The OP said in her original post that the builders have their own structural engineers that assessed the wall. They should have looked at the house in its entirety. There is no excuse for them not looking in the loft.
There are 2 separate problems here.
Are the builders liable in any way? I would say yes
Is the previous owner also liable separately for the loft? Yes

@rewilded a good builder will use common sense and double check but the structural surveyor is qualified and trained to look at the building as a whole and do all the complicated calculations to make sure this sort of thing is safe. That's what you are paying them for and that's why you need them when you are doing structural work. Otherwise any old person could just say, yeah the joists run the other way, you are fine to take the wall out.

This whole story is missing key information. What did the OP actually ask the builders to do, and what information did they supply the builders with? Structural engineering is a specific skilled job and if the OP didn't contract with the builders for that paid service then they can't expect it to have magically happened for free. Equally, if the OP didn't tell the builder that there had been structural alterations to the building elsewhere, why would the builder be expected to take that into consideration? It literally says "the builders didn't know" - so that doesn't sound like the OP actually supplied the builders with information or asked them to provide any kind of assessment. You can't retrospectively complain because someone didn't provide a service you didn't ask for.

Sounds like the problem is with your survey and the previous work - which will be difficult to prove

I'd find it hard to blame your builders as they didn't know that the house was basically unsound

It doesn't really matter what the OP asked the builders to do. They claimed the wall could be knocked down when it couldn't. They are responsible for doing any due diligence prior to commencing work. Builders should not be going round knocking walls down without a structural engineer having a look (and if their structural engineer did have a look then they have messed up).

Nope. You can't expect the services of a structural engineer if you don't ask for or pay for the services of a structural engineer.

Surveys aren’t worth the money at all,we went with a long standing reputable company,they didn’t pick up on anything at all!we’re now £35k lighter and counting,wouldn’t have bought the place,the builders aren’t at fault I don’t think.

You should have paid for a structural engineer to confirm it was safe for conversion
The builder was not instructed to check( but arguably he could have checked)
I bought an older house which was listed as 2/3 bedrooms and had been semi converted. I was even given the drawings and granted planning permission documents before sale was completed.
Kindly This is on you.

Surveyor is different to a structural engineer

Builders shouldn't be knocking down walls not assessed by a structural engineer so they are in the wrong.

And this is a perfect example of WHY.
They might get away with it on numerous occasions but that doesn't change the fact a structural engineer should ALWAYS be consulted and do a full assessment before work like this is undertaken.

Our structural engineer (oops, called him surveyor up thread, but I meant SE) charged something like £500 I seem to remember, just to come out for a short visit (in fact, on his way to golf!), and confirm the wall wasn't load bearing. Obviously, that is so expensive because it includes his expertise and insurance, which is what we were paying for.

Builders shouldn't be knocking down walls not assessed by a structural engineer so they are in the wrong.
I agree with this. Many householders wouldn't have a clue whether the wall was load bearing (stud or not), so rely on the builder to advise them. We don't know whether the builders got a SE in or not, but I can see how they might have cut corners to reduce costs.

RICS (royal institution for chartered surveyors) offer a dispute resolution service.
https://search.app/cJZbDesorDXS7Kiv9
This problem is not straight forward, there are multiple parties involved and all are implicated in one way or another.
I think it's going to take a solicitor at least to sort out it.

The small print in all the contacts/agreements from the previous owner, sale surveyor, building firm SE, building firm) is where the responsibility and liability nitty gritty will be found. It might take some unpicking. One thing is sure it's not your fault, but whether you've hired the right people for the right job will be the part where you discover if you are protected now.

Really sorry you're dealing with this op.
Your DH is trying damage limitation, which is understandable as this would be a catastrophe for most people given the effort time and stress in getting it sorted.

But you definitely need to know where you stand quickly as if you continue to accumulate bills with a firm you may be in a legal battle with (or not) you need to know.

What a nightmare

What type of survey did you pay for?
What questions were asked by your solicitor about the conversion? Did you even make them aware?