Buyers doesn't understand that they can't just demand everything they want

[WanderingThree]

As the title says.

My property is older and not perfect and priced accordingly. Sizable discount 5% was still given during initial negotiations. All OK.

They had survey done which they say showed problems as of course it would in an old house. Main ones were the electrics don't meet current regs (not ancient/ ugly/unsafe); roof requires further investigation (no leak, granted looks old)

Buyers have immediately asked for a further reduction of £25k to cover cost of a new roof and a full rewire!

EA is being no help at all and suggesting I may have to agree if I want the sale to go ahead. No, just no.

How do I deal with this? Is the original discount just forgotten and they can expect more? The electrics may need an upgrade and roof may not be perfect but surely there demands are totally unreasonable. Arent they? Losing the plot & need your guidance
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IwishLifeWasDull
If you know the roof is old and the electric requiring hasn't been done for 30 years, then you need to reduce.
Yes, my roof is old but my electrics are notv30 years old, just don't meet current regs.

anniegun Thanks for your wise words. I certainly feel as though i'm at the pointy end!

DahliaSmith The wise words were yours too - thank you.

@WanderingThree The problem you will have if you lose this buyer is that every potential buyer is likely to have a similar survey. It's not a case of getting another estate agent and offer, it's the fact that the situation with the electrics and roof will still be there. If your buyer needs a mortgage, your house may well be valued at a substantial sum below asking price. If you can afford a reduction, say £10k, offer that. As you can't afford to reduce by £25k you may not be able to sell if that turns out to be the cost of the work. I'd get some quotes for the work so I was in a stronger negotiating position.

I think the word 'evidence' is confusing here.

The buyers won't (and shouldn't) show you the actual survey, but it would be perfectly normal for them to get quotes from specific tradespeople for the work. Where have they got that £25k figure from? If it's directly from the surveyor, they are neither an electrician nor a roofer, so I wouldn't be listening to that. If the buyer has plucked that figure from thin air/a cursory google, even less so.

I would be very surprised if asking them to get specific evidence caused them to pull out all together- at the very least they'd come back and say "no we aren't" before they did.

Your EA has really let you down here, and should be asking for the above on your behalf.

I understand, OP. Unfortunately, it's just not a great market for most sellers. I hope it goes well and you can settle on a figure and get to exchange. Maybe you could do that - give a firm figure and set an exchange date.

Quotes are immaterial. If a quote comes back as £25k it doesn't change anything, OP can't afford to reduce by that much and it doesn't mean the buyer is owed that much off. If a quote came back as £15k the buyer could still hold firm at £25k just because they want to.

It just comes down to what both parties want, what they are prepared to move on and who blinks first.

Asking to see quotes will just take longer and adds nothing to either side's position in the end.

Make a counter offer, be prepared to lose the buyer. If you do lose the buyer consider getting the electrical work done yourself before remarking. But keep.it simple, neither side needs to justify their their request or counter offer.

Neither does the surveyor as they are neither electricians nor roofers and it is why all surveys are just full of backside covering.

It is difficult when you need to sell a property and do not want to lose a buyer, however there are buyers who both chance their luck and or just believe everything that is written in a surveyors report, thinking if they purchased the house as is, the moment they turned on a light they would be electrocuted, whilst clambering out from under the roof which has caved in.

@WanderingThree I suggested previously, as have others, offer to pay to obtain an electrical safety certificate, which may or may not require some remedial works to the electrics. As to the roof, it is not leaking there is no damp, a roof does not need to be replaced because it looks old.

The key to this siutation is if the buyers are having a mortgage, if so there will be a document which states the mortgage company are happy with the valuation. A survey is additional to that valuation.

Easy for people to say stand firm, but I think in this case you need to stand firm!

I also think your buyers will ultimately be aiming for 10-15k off, but will have said 25k as a starter as a negotiation tactic

I can see this from both sides. However, it sounds as if you don't think you would find another buyer easily and therefore don't want to lose your current buyers. I would therefore agree with the very pragmatic posters and suggest 10-15k off the agreed price but make it clear that you will not negotiate further.

You could add inti your reply ‘ I had thought the 5% reduction negotiated at the outset was intended to allow for these works, it’s hardly a secret that the house is old. I have now sourced quotes and according to these the cost of what you want done is the 5% + 5k, so I will offer an additional 5k reduction.’

It could equally well be a sign that they just want their commission as soon as possible. Estate agents might technically be working for you but they don’t have your best interests at heart.

@DahliaSmith Sorry I hadn't meant to quote you before - fat fingers!

Qualified electrician here, the most recent regulatory update was on the 28th of March 2022 (18th Edition Amendment 2)

ANYTHING done before that is technically out of date, BUT there is NO requirement for private houses to have anything upgraded unless it requires doing to make a new work compliant.

My house was wired to the 14th edition in the late 60's, the wiring is fine, I have replaced the fusebox, back in 2008, which is now "out of date"

I regularly work on a house which was wired in 1928, and has all its original fuse boxes, they still work fine (somewhat amazingly!!), I would advocate a re-wire there, but it can't be forced.

If the cable insulation is PVC, which really is anything from the late 50's onwards, very rarely does the wiring need changing.

Electrician here, don't do that.

Anything wired before the current regs will likely flag up as "unsatisfactory", doesn't mean its unsafe or unsalable.

AND

EICR's (Electrical Installation Condition Reports) are non transferrable, they void automatically on change of owner / Tennant.

Only required for let premises, will cause problems where there are none, you buy a house as it stands!

Unless you are VERY motivated to sell i would be refusing. The house is old, the roof is old, the electrics are old. You want new stuff? You buy a new house. I am quite certain the general condition will have been taken into account upon valuation, surely?

You might get a buyer despite survey, we bought ours without a survey because we knew exactly what it would say - house is old and stuff needs doing! We liked it so we bought it.

Worth adding, and its drummed into us as apprentices - the wiring regulations are not a law, they are guidance of best practice - they are enshrined in law by other legislation for commercial premises and let premises, but there is no legal requirement for compliance retrospectively in private dwellings.

So where commercial premises and let premises have to be inspected regularly and upgraded to current standards, private homes don't.

At the end of the day you need to decide how much you need to sell for amd what you think its worth and that is usually influenced on what you are buying, how much equity your house has in it, what seems fair for your area , speed you need to sell at etc balanced against how many buyers are available and their funds, what else is in the market at that price . It's a bit of a game of blink. If I wasn't in a rush I think I'd re list if I felt my house was correctly priced. Do you think it was overpriced to start with? We recently had our house valued. There was 100 thousand different between agents. We went with the lower one as we know what houses nearby sold for and what work needs to be done and we want a quick sale.

A rewiring would be £5k and roof maybe £10k. So where is that 25K coming from?

Also, it all depends if you initially priced the house reasonably to reflect the fact that it is an older property and work will need doing.

PropertyManager Very helpful comments on electrics - thanks.

And thanks to all who have continued to post. Feeling less alone with this dilemma. I'm calmer if not yet decisive as to where to go with it.

Wonder if the buyer knows the EA? 🤔

@Startingagainandagain negotiation tactics? Ask for 25k and hope for a compromise of 15k which is what they secretly wanted?

Apologies OP I have not read the whole thread, but this happened to me - also selling an old house and buyers who at the last minute said the roof needed replacing and there was damp and they wanted £35k reduction.

Your EA is letting you down here. If they won't be in the driving seat you might want to ask your solicitor if they can support a bit. It's very emotional but you have to stay factual. Like you I actually couldn't afford to move at the lower price (I could, but it just didn't make sense as a financial decision if I did) and it helped that I made that bottom line decision in my head. I was also angry because they refused to show any evidence from the survey. After days of wrangling between them and my agent, they finally sent through a multi page Word document THEY had authored, "quoting" the surveyor, but refusing to show any actual excerpts/screengrabs of the relevant sections.

I think you have to stand up for yourself here because if you give in, you just don't know if they'll do it again on the eve of exchange. If you have the actual excerpts from the survey, go back and say you'll be getting a roofer to quote. Get an electrician to come and look at the electrics and give an assessment of the need for them to be updated in XX years. They are welcome to get their own quotes but use these quotes to determine your position.

What happened in my case was - they claimed they wanted £35k reduction. I offered £5k 'goodwill gesture' if they agreed it there and then and if not I would put the house back on the market. They said no, so I relisted. (I actually had another offer within days which I wasn't expecting, although not quite as high!). They then came crawling back and eventually shared their document which continued to be incredibly frustrating. My EA was very supportive though and insisted to them that they could not justify a reduction without providing the evidence.

When the quotes came back for the roof, it was suggested it could do with £5k maintenance but had 15-20 years left in it yet. I accepted that in the years I had lived in the house, I had not had any maintenance work done on my 120+ year old original (and beautiful!) tiled roof and therefore I decided I would go back and say to them I was prepared to shoulder this cost and offered that reduction again.

It's so hard when you're stressed beyond belief, it's very unfortunate that they are being this hard nosed, but I would not give in if I were you. Get more facts, get some support - if necessary speak to the manager at the EAs or something - and try to work through it.

Again, all of this is massively over complicating it. The EA doesn't need to be that involved, the solicitor doesn't need to be, quotes and evidence aren't required. They want £25k off, OP doesn't want to give that. She just needs to decide her bottom line, offer that and sit tight.

One simple response. No need to drag it out for weeks.

Don’t involve the solicitor- they can’t do anything special and will charge for their time. Just suggest a compromise amount of money off the purchase price like £10k for example.
(yes the first discount is forgotten now)

Thanks for the advice @DappledThings - having just successfully navigated this exact scenario I can tell you that if you want a successful sale it helps diffuse the impasse by arming yourself with evidence. Some buyers are genuinely twitchy and the evidence gives them a way to climb down from their position.

If the OP doesn’t have a strong EA this becomes harder, because they are your mouthpiece. When the ultimate goal is to reach agreement it’s not as simple as you claim. If the buyers genuinely believe they’re inheriting a house with £25k worth of issues they may well pull out.