New house has major structural issue

[INeedCharcoalPants]

I posted recently about issues in the house we moved into on 19th January and we've now discovered yet another problem, but a pretty serious one.

I noticed the upstairs floor was bowed near a wall, big gap under the skirting board which looked concerning. The joiner who looked today has said that at some point a wall was removed downstairs (which we never realised had actually been done) and no support above of any kind was put in. He's coming back tomorrow to put timber supports in the kitchen to shore it up.

I spoke to the neighbour to get an idea of what this part of the house previously looked like and he told me that the work was done well over a decade ago, by the owner who was there before our own seller.

Where do we go from here? I'm calling the solicitor first thing for advice but we're devastated at this latest setback. I feel like just packing a bag and leaving this place with the first property auction I can find

Get back to the surveyor - send photos and explain the issue. You have been there less than a month - the survey was presumably done in the past four or five months. Ask how this defect was missed. (If the house is a standard Victorian/Edwardian/1930s layout, for example, it should have been obvious that a wall had been removed and the surveyor should have been looking out for evidence of support.)

The homebuyers report should have noticed this I would have thought! They're not full structural surveys but a bowed floor etc should have been flagged for further investigation... I'd ask the surveyor to come back out and have a look at it.

I agree you should go back to the surveyor who did the home buyers' report and ask why something so obviously warped was not flagged as needing further investigation. Send pictures.

Any pictures of it ?

Echoing others about structural engineer

but not all walls are structural it might just of naturally settled after wall removed

You haven't installed a load of massive furniture upstairs have you, changing the floor loading ?

Might be worth thinking about at least on a temporary basis while you get reports in.

This is all part and parcel of home owning especially when people have lived in a property before you and you don't know what they have done. But what you need to know is that pretty much everything can be fixed, yes it requires money but I think one of the best TV shows you can watch is "Help! My House is Falling Down" loads of episodes on Youtube where different situations are covered and you can see how things can be corrected including massive structural cracks.

Best advice I can give you right now is to take a minute and I hate this phrase but be your future friend. So before you start decorating rooms etc think about basics, do you have enough plug sockets? Are they in the right places? Would you need an outside plug socket maybe, one for where you will put your Christmas tree. So consider any floorboards being lifted for plumbing or electrics before you put down lovely flooring. For us this was running a cable from the consumer unit to the bathroom as later we would be putting in an electric shower in the children's bathroom, outside sockets for Christmas lights plus powering any electric tools, lawnmower, hedge trimmer etc. This is the boring bit, the bit before choosing whole house colour palettes and flooring but having lived in several properties this would be my advice. Obviously so many renovation property channels on Youtube/Insta?TikTok to show you anything is possible.

@GasPanic the room is our sons bedroom, has single bed, single wardrobe and little desk in it. Previously it was a bedroom with similar furniture in. We've moved the desk away from the bowed wall

Expensive way to learn not to buy without a full structural survey.

Struggling to see how this reply is remotely helpful

It might be to someone reading this thread before they buy. I was amazed to hear from my conveyancing solicitor, who mainly works with 1920s houses, that only half of his clients do a full structural survey. I can't imagine why you'd make such a big investment without one.

Also helpful to stop OP from chasing seller etc for comeback as there is none.

I would be amazed if a normal homebuyers survey wouldn't typically pick up that a supporting wall had been removed, and to advise to check the correct process was followed and evidence of building regs approval obtained.

It didn't here.............

Well, in that case there could well be a claim against a negligent surveyor, as opposed to the OP not having the higher level survey.

I suspect homebuyers surveys are full of caveats about not being there to look for structural issues....you get what you pay for

Surveyors, or those who do a home buyers report will not move furniture so the issue may or may not have been there. When buying, as harsh as it may sound, you could have looked behind furniture, or asked to have furniture moved. Just as harshly, a full survey, you could have accompanied the surveyor and had permission from the vendors to move the furniture. If the issue was visible to the person undertaking the home buyers report they have either missed it or deemed it unimportant.

As others have said, get a structural engineer to have a look, it may or may not be a problem. If it is a problem, get it fixed so it is safe. If there is a structural issue, which a structural engineers report can show was visible and not hidden etc, there may be some merit in advising the company who did the home buyers report, I expect without long protracted legal expenses, they may only offer your a refund, or partial refund on the homebuyers report cost.

Sort out the problem, move on and enjoy your new home. It is annoying an upsetting this has happend so early on, but it is the joys of owning your own home.

So are buildings surveys!

Whilst it is common to refer to them as 'full structural surveys' they are officially known as buildings surveys. They aren't a specific investigation in to the structure of a building, but obviously more detailed than a homebuyers.

More point is, if a supporting wall has been removed in a property, it should have been noted on a homebuyers report. With a line to 'ensure the relevant consents have been obtained' or similar wording.

Just wanted to hop on here to reassure you OP that my DH and I have renovated a few properties and when we first started out we got the full structural survey done and later found a similar issue to you that half the house was balancing on a cracked wooden window with no other supports. We then bought the next property and got another structural survey done and again a few months later found quite a major structural defect you would have expected to have come up in the survey. It didn’t. We haven’t bothered to do another one on any other property because they do miss things (even major issues) and the reports are worded very carefully to ensure the surveyor will not be liable for anything that was missed. I can see you’re beating yourself up for not having done one but there’s no guarantee they’d have picked up on it anyway.

It has survived over 10 years so it’s unlikely to fall down imminently so get a couple of builders in to quote to sort it. They can liase and get a structural engineer in as well. It’s all fixable, don’t worry.

Don't beat yourself up over this. We did get a structural survey done and it didn't stop our surveyors being able to weasel out of what was a massive defect in our house that we successfully sued the sellers for. The head of the surveyors company called me directly and told me that there are now so many clauses in these things that they're watertight pretty much on any defect because society has become litigious over the smallest things and they've had to cover their backs. A structural survey may have helped you but it may not have so don't have sleepless nights over the woulda coulda shoulda. Good luck with a resolution.

@Nosleepforthismum thanks, it's reassuring to know that despite best efforts, things get missed and it may have happened even if we did get a full survey.

Temp supports are going in today, will look for a good structural engineer then get moving on properly sorting it. Emotionally, I'm not sure where to go from here. I feel like I'm done with this place, I'm constantly on edge, snappy with my DCs and my heart sinks when I need to return there. What kind of way is that to live?

Hi op, I just wanted to say, I had something like this a few houses ago. It was tough, but once the work was all done I fell in love with the house again, as I remembered why I bought it in the first place! I took a loan to do the work, on the basis that the extra cost for three years whilst paying it off was worth not worrying about things falling down. The cost compared to saving up and doing the work was marginal, and meant I got to enjoy the house much sooner.
I’ve just had to have an RSJ put in,in my current house, it was about £5k plus redecoration costs. So hopefully your costs will be similar.
A full survey would have missed it if hidden by furniture, I discovered that the hard way and then there’s no comeback on the surveyors. At least this way, the £1k or so you saved on the survey, will help to pay for the work. If nothing else, it should cover the interest if you need to take a loan to pay for it, so you’ve not lost in the long run IYSWIM?

Homebuyer reports are supposed to pick out the more serious issues, though I believe surveys are just named 1-3 now?
Even structural surveys miss things, and the surveyors cover their backs all the way by wording in their report. I know someone whose house near on collapsed and had to be rebuilt. £30k plus to put right. House insurance wouldn’t cover it. A massive hit, but probably the best built house in the street now….

Note temporary supports should be acro props, not timbers, and placed by a good builder who will be able to judge the tension applied and its effect, you don't want to shove something back too far and de-stabilise it.

You then need a good builder coupled with a structural engineer to specify a steel to go in to take the load above.

If there is no load above (ie the wall only supported the joists themselves, that have now sagged) there is less of an issue, and that can be entirely resolved by a competent builder / joiner.

Is it documented this wall was removed 10 yrs ago or is the date etc taken from the neighbours memory?

Don't let it get you down, it's just a house and it's fixable. Much bigger problems going on in the world. Don't fall out with a house you presumably previously loved because of a couple of hiccups.

We paid for the full survey and they missed loads. Similar to PP, we looked at suing for compensation but the bar to prove professional negligence is so high. And we were advised we might have to pay for another survey to see if it would have been picked up by another survey to prove incompetence, and that’s no guarantee. The director of the company and the survey highlighted all the caveats which were all over the report to protect themselves. I basically view our report as really expensive toilet paper