Woodburner owners

[Brixtonvssouthcroydon]

Are you happy with it?
Our new place has a biggish living room and not sure radiators will be enough to keep it warm in very cold days
We are considering a wood burner (using it with smokeless fuel) but wondering if it is actually quite fastidious (time to light it up, feeding it, ordering and storing fuel etc) and in practise it won't be used very much.

Of course the cost per kwh is relevant.

Because it is the only way of comparing like with like.

And no, I won't take your word for it just because you happen to pay the bills.

Science doesn't work like that. It requires proof.

Proof in this case that you are getting more or less energy for your money than gas. And unless you know what the cost of the energy is for wood, which is extremely difficult to establish for reasons already explained, you can't do that calculation. End of story.

Why should I take what you claim over what many other people on the internet claim ? People that seem to have a far greater understanding of the science behind assessing the equivalence of different energy sources than you ?

That it is not cheaper than gas unless you get "free" wood. Why should I believe you and not them ?

TBH I think the whole idea of buying something wood (energy) and never knowing how much you are actually getting for your money is madness. It makes the entire sector open to abuse from charlatans and scammers. Because no one ever knows exactly how much energy their money buys.

@gaspanic. Absolutely am I going to believe my bills that I am paying. When I can heat and maintain a multi fuel stove for hundreds of pounds per year cheaper than running a gas boiler - too right I’m going to believe my bank balance!! So will other consumers.

would you really want to pay more for something when the cheaper option does exactly the same thing as the expensive option? If so - give me your money you so freely want to part with. I’ll keep it extremely safe.

I love ours. We use logs from our own trees so free fuel! Before we had it we had a very large open fire which went through so much wood but the log burner is so much more controllable. It's not a faff - we just empty the tray underneath into a metal ash bucket and then use an ash hoover to clean it out. We have a log store round the side of the house plus an enormous basket in the fireplace which holds enough for 5 or 6 evenings.

We also replaced the dated 1950s open fire in our rental for a long burner which has been greatly appreciated.

My parents have one and they love it. They are generally easier to light and deal with. Once lit they absorb the heat and throw it back out again, they really warm the room and stay warm for hours, and you have control over when it is lit. A bit like a part-time Aga. As a staunch climate person I probably shouldn’t say this, but given that stuff will be burned anyway I find it a good place to burn papers etc instead of shredding. I thought there was some sort of law in place (related to air quality) though? Might make it more difficult to get one.

You can believe what you want to believe. That's your privilege.

I hope though that the rest of the world is persuaded by science and facts, not anecdote.

Log burners in urban environments are destroying air quality, not only in the homes of the individuals that have them, but the greater air quality that everyone has to experience. You can look back over the thread and see the science. The responsibility they have for creating more dangerous particulates currently in cities than road traffic should be sobering enough.

For me it is even more of a tragedy that people might choose to further this destruction of our air urban quality which has been very hard won by over decades of legislation based on unproven anecdotes rather than on actual science and facts. So I'll continue to challenge that when I see it.

Otherwise we just get more people ending up with these things in the mistaken belief they are actually cheaper, and we head back to the sort of air quality we had in the 1950s.

Gaspanic is correct about the air pollution but we just ordered and had delivered our first load of logs for winter because it IS cheaper and frankly we don't have money to waste at the moment. If the Scottish government gave us more of a provision for childcare I would gladly never use the log burner again. But we simply need to select the cheapest forms of goods sometimes. I'm spending 1.6k a month on childcare so yeh, I'm choosing cheaper forms to heat my home

@gaspanic. It’s not believing it is cheaper - it’s knowing it’s miles cheaper. My bills tell me that!
As for the ‘science’ please take the time to read the studies from cover to cover. Actually read every single work. The researchers actually state that their studies are too small, and they admit to mixing up the various forms of multi fuel,
wood stoves and open fires and not actually comparing the particle emissions with those of gas ovens and hobs ( which have subsequently been found to have far higher harmful emissions and emissions which hang around inside homes for longer).
These studies doesn’t even include biomass burners - which is wood pulp and something the government and studies push as being very green and a benefit to the environment. Do you not think that is ever so slightly at odds with the message that wood burners are bad? Same wood, still being burnt, same emissions- yet a completely different message?!

The studies actually state their own short comings and state that much further research needs to be done.
The science by which their own admission isn’t the best it could be and further studies are needed.
Go ahead and challenge the science for better research methods as the research actually want!

@MidnightOnceMore 'I don't understand why people still voluntarily make their indoor air quality worse.'

I guess you live somewhere with mains gas. In a town. You don't spend much time in rural hamlets?

Plenty of people don't have access to mains gas. Calor gas costs a fortune.

I've recently persuaded an aunt who lives rurally and was relying on open fires, to switch to a log burner, that has improved the air quality in her house hugely, compared to what she was using.

It uses far less fuel, retains much more heat, and keeps her warm through too-frequent power cuts.

@MidnightOnceMore'I don't understand why people still voluntarily make their indoor air quality worse.'

Because some of us, having actually looked at the data, have come to the conclusion that the (probably minuscule if you are using a modern efficient log burner) risk from using wood rather than gas is worth it in order to use a sustainable, renewable source of fuel rather than maintaining our dependence on fossil fuels?

Unless we stop using fossil fuels future generations (and not so far future either, our children) will have to deal with much worse than a tiny increase in particulates in the air.

As for the fuel cost - I'll go back to what I said before. It is very hard to tell because it's hard to tell the energy content of wood, plus it is sold in strange ways and in different conditions. From some time on the web looking at forums like money saving expert the general conclusion seems to be that the only way you can save significantly over mains gas with a log burner is to get "free" wood £75 of wood is meaningless. the £ is not a unit of energy so it can't be compared with gas.

I heat a three bedroom, three storey house for £100/mth for logs and £60/mth for gas & electric combined (in the winter). I work at home and have two teens. I'm not interested in comparing units of energy, I can see from what other people are paying for gas, eBay I'm saving money.