Woodburner owners

[Brixtonvssouthcroydon]

Are you happy with it?
Our new place has a biggish living room and not sure radiators will be enough to keep it warm in very cold days
We are considering a wood burner (using it with smokeless fuel) but wondering if it is actually quite fastidious (time to light it up, feeding it, ordering and storing fuel etc) and in practise it won't be used very much.

You should get the chimney swept at least once per year (I think they recommend twice but that sounds like overkill to me).

it's every four months if you're burning wood, and you need the certificate for your insurance to be valid.

All these posters above - well they’re either ignorant of the risks, or living in denial so they don’t have to lose their lovely hygge lifestyle.

The health and environmental risks of the pollution caused by burning wood are well known now. Anyone buying or using a wood burning stove who is able to heat their house in another way is using a wood-burning stove with their fingers in their ears singing ‘la la la’ pretending that that they don’t know about the consequences because they don’t want to compromise their desire for a cosy fire by doing the right thing. I really wanted one but after looking into it realised there was no way that it is justifiable. We recycle, we have changed to an electric car, etc - getting a wood-burning stove, although lovely, would fly in the face of all of our efforts.

Also how can you ignore the existing and emerging evidence about the health risks to the user themselves as mentioned upstream - no thanks!

It is however pointless to use the state of cooking stoves developing countries (where CO is often a part of the problem) with modern, well maintained multi fuel burners used for heating.

Seasoned wood is a sustainable fuel source at low cost in areas which are otherwise dependent on oil and often poor. Telling people reliant on these heaters to rip them out and pay the costs of installing heatpumps (and the near passivhaus retrofit involved) is the "let them eat cake" argument from the EV Range Rover class IME.

Sure advise against new fits where other fuels are available (although the sustainability and carbon footprint comparisons are not always straightforward). Reommend smokeless and low particulate fuels where burners already in urban areas but the reason they remain popular is because they work well for their purpose in UK housing stock.

All these posters above - well they’re either ignorant of the risks, or living in denial so they don’t have to lose their lovely hygge lifestyle

your right, it is lovely …😄 but stop panicking, no one is asking you to get one. You’re alight. Rest of us are adults and can chose our lovely lifestyle.

We have a stove in the kitchen and an open fire in the sitting room. We live in a Victorian terrace with large rooms, high ceilings, stone walls, and air gaps under the floorboards. We have excellent double glazing, thick lined curtains, and attic insulation (apart from the front which is another original room directly in the roof with therefore very little insulation above). We have a relatively new gas boiler and make sure our radiators are efficient, and we have those foil panels behind them. Despite all that, the nature of the house means it’s a bastard to heat in the winter. It was designed for fires so a decade ago we succumbed and opened them back up. The difference of a winter evening is amazing.
Having said that, with a heavy heart I agree @MrsJamin is right. I do worry about the pollution, most of all for us obviously, and we try to limit use. We order seasoned logs, never burn any old stuff, just the clean ones, and try to get as hot a burn as possible. Nevertheless I am nudging DH towards lighting it later, putting one less log on, and can’t wait for Spring.
On the cost comparison - don’t believe it, not for my house anyway, you haven’t seen my bills!
(we also have solar panels which take a lot off the cost in the summer for electricity and we run a car off it - we are a real mix! - I only wish we could heat the house with them but of course in winter we can’t).

Our wood burner can heat the whole house you just need a fan to sit ontop.

We deliberately bought a multifuel model. I would say look at Jotuns which are Norwegian worth the extra £100.

We only buy 2 year seasoned wood.
In our area in Winter it's a life line not only because it's cheaper to run then gas but because we get lots of Autumn storms and power cuts which can last a few days (had 3 already this season). We would be absolutely screwed if we didn't have it as we can't decamp anywhere. Storm Arwen was no power for 4 days our fire meant we were warm and could cook.

Only if your burning wood than was freshly cut down the day before and use your garden pond as your wood store.

once a year is fine.

I suspect the problem with the cost comparison is that most people are not comparing like with like.

They use the woodburner and it heats a couple of rooms to a higher temperature rather than all the rooms to a lower one. But the amount of energy produced might actually be less.

It is also very difficult to get specs on the amount of energy wood actually produces to make a comparison. From what I see on the web no wood is sold as having a specific energy content per kg. Some is sold as having a specific water content (which also affects the energy output) and a lot appears to be sold as not even as having mass - it's sold as a "big bag". So to make a comparison of whether it is actually cheaper or not per kw is difficult to impossible.

I suspect like the many reports detail, it is only actually cheaper (in terms of the amount of energy you get per pound you pay) if you get "free" wood and that any wood you pay for is likely to be at least as expensive as gas.

And running costs in terms of things like chimney sweeps and firelighters are probably comparable to boiler servicing once per year.

It's also worth adding that if you spend 15 mins per day preparing wood, feeding and cleaning a wood burner that is equivalent to about £2.50 at minimum wage. That would buy me about 2.5 hours worth of gas heating.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow , Thanks for telling me off.
Are you sure these scare stories are not part of the general disaster trend that the internet breeds? Surely we want no more, after the nonsense spewed out about Covid.
Many of those were backed by scientists who just got it wrong. Others were nutters with their own agenda.

I used to go out running at this time of year as I like the cool nights, but unfortunately I live in suburban middle class hell where houses are less than 5 metres apart and every man and their dog has a wood burner cheerily pumping inordinate amounts of shit into the air making everything stink and triggering asthma in those with it already and those who dont.

Seasoned wood is a sustainable fuel source at low cost in areas which are otherwise dependent on oil and often poor. Telling people reliant on these heaters to rip them out and pay the costs of installing heatpumps (and the near passivhaus retrofit involved) is the "let them eat cake" argument from the EV Range Rover class IME.

All the posters here who have criticized the use of woodburners, including me, have stated AGAIN AND AGAIN that we understand they may have to be used in remote areas where other forms of heating are difficult and impractical. We are talking about banning them in cities. This has been stated multiple times. Do you struggle with reading comprehension?

The great majority of people using these things are prosperous middle class and upper middle class people who are wealthier than average, so can we please drop this whole crap about woodburners being mainly used by poor people in the UK?

If you are concerned about internal pollution then you can get an air purifier (making sure it filters the right sized particles). Ours has a sensor and it rarely turns on unless DH has decided to unnecessarily poke at the fire when he opens the door to refuel. If it turns on it purifies the room in 15 mins.

Does it purify the air you are causing your neighbours to breathe in?

Nope.

Bloody wood burners should be banned.

@GasPanic
boiler service £90 plus parts.
chimney sweep £40 including parts such as fire rope, sealant and polish.

our multi fuel stove heats all the rooms to the same temp or higher than the gas heating for a substantial widget of cash less per year.
no chopping of fuel required as it all comes pre done. But if I did have free wood - I would not begrudge spending a few hours chopping it - as it’s cheaper exercise than the gym or swimming! Win win.

Totally agree with Lou Lou.

Also worth noting that these studies admit that they didn’t do any actually research solely on a defra approved wood burner. They admit that they lumped multi fuel stoves, wood burner stoves, open fires of all ages and brands in together. Nor was the fuel types being used taken into consideration ie coal, green wood, anthracite, smokeless, dry wood. The researchers admit that this should not have happened. They also state that their research was in a fairly small sample and should really be repeated with a much greater degree of separation and with correct comparison of useage and particulate emissions to gas and electric appliances including jobs and ovens. But so few people actually bother to read the entire study and just want it read the sound bites offered by politician and newspapers…..

Checkatrade gives an average of £65 for a chimney sweep.

By the time you have added in extra materials costs such as firelighters and cleaning materials I am confident the costs are comparable to a boiler service which checkatrade says is around £100. There are additional things you might use with a boiler, for example you might have a change of inhibitor once every few years or so in the heating circuit.

On the web it says woodburners last around 10-20 years, which IME is pretty comparable to boilers.

The most significant difference is probably the re-install cost. I don't know for sure, but my guess is that the re-install for a new stove when you have the infrastructure in place is probably significantly less cost than the install cost for a new boiler replacement if you also take into account radiators. I suspect with magnetic traps coming into being the lifetime of radiators and boilers will increase.

I don't see any basis for the claim that wood burners are significantly cheaper than boilers in terms of ongoing running costs. You might find there is £20 a year or so in it. Fuel costs are more difficult to determine because of the lack of specification on wood.

No, multiple posters on this thread have stated they should be banned full stop.

It is not only houses in remote areas who don't have access to gas and who are subject to regular intermittent powercuts - it includes plenty who live in villages locations where your choices are oil or solid fuels and solid fuel burners don't go off during power cuts.

The idea that the bulk of owners are wealthy middle classes who use them on Saturdays in WInter is laughable outside of major cities. They are one of the two default methods of heating in significant parts of the UK and incomes in such areas are below national averages (by quite a margin in some parts of the country).

My neighbours are fairly distant and don't tend to hover around in my driveway. They've probably got woodburners of their own to worry about.

@GasPanic I love that you think hundreds of pounds in savings is only equivalent to ‘£20’!!!

checkatrade is notoriously out of date with current pricing across the board.

you don’t need firefighters for a wood or coal burner. As for cleaning. - the ash and a bit of tap water on some newspaper or a sheet of kitchen rooms or toilet paper (can have been used for other purposes) is all you need to clean the glass of a stove. I would assume that most people have some old rags to dust their homes and hearth with. So the cost of cleaning is pence per year other than the chimney sweep - which is still cheaper than your £65 checkatrade quote. And still you have parts on top. Wood stove maintenance is also able to be done diy - gas boilers not so much. It is a good idea to have a professional sweep clean the flue rather than diy - because insurance companies like to have a certificate, but it is possible to sweep a flue yourself and save even more money!!
A replacement stove is far cheaper (hundred of pounds) than a replacement boiler (thousands of pounds)- if the flue and chimney are both ok. Even factoring work on a new flue and chimney would still only equal the cost of a cheap boiler.
so overall a wood burner is still coming out cheaper than gas.
It is really really really easy to do the sums. Anyone who has both gas and wood or coal drives can do the maths and see what the savings are for them and people are even on this thread and time and time again, it’s wood is cheaper for them.

We've got what's a 'wet install' with pipework behind the fire box and in winter having the fire lit means hot water and radiators too. I haven't figured out the savings but our winter bills are lower than the summer ones.

*Checkatrade gives an average of £65 for a chimney sweep.

By the time you have added in extra materials costs such as firelighters and cleaning materials I am confident the costs are comparable to a boiler service which checkatrade says is around £100.*

Your confidence is misplaced.
A sweep is £50 here. Firelighters aren't essential, but cost £1 a box if you choose that path. We do use them sometimes out of laziness, but have never used more than 2 boxes over a winter. We have a bottle of glass cleaner that came free with the stove 10 years ago. It is used on the odd occasion (high days and holidays 😬), but we clean as the PP otherwise so it is still half full. Our annual costs are the above £52 plus ~£75 for the wood. Maybe add another £1 for a box of matches?
The only other cost since installation has been a piece of replacement fireboard a few years ago, which was about £20 IIRC.

Chimney sweep is 100 quid here in West Yorkshire.

I'm in South Yorks, only £50 here to get swept and checked.

No, it's entirely correct.

The costs are comparable, with maybe chimney sweeping coming out a bit cheaper, but not hugely so. And that is before even considering the fact that some places recommend if you use wood burners extensively then you should consider 2x sweeps a year.

Which I guess is because it is largely the same amount of time per job. Boiler service is probably faster but the labour cost is probably higher because of the training/regulation. And Checkatrade bears that out. And I am more likely to believe their analysis (even though I am sure it is not perfectly accurate) than some random statement from one person on the web, because they have probably surveyed multiple people in different parts of the country.

As for the fuel cost - I'll go back to what I said before. It is very hard to tell because it's hard to tell the energy content of wood, plus it is sold in strange ways and in different conditions. From some time on the web looking at forums like money saving expert the general conclusion seems to be that the only way you can save significantly over mains gas with a log burner is to get "free" wood.

£75 of wood is meaningless. the £ is not a unit of energy so it can't be compared with gas.

@GasPanic knowing the ‘output’ of each log as opposed to unit of gas is completely immaterial! You are getting very confused with thermal value and cost. The only unit of any value and comparison is what it actually costs the consumer. Time and time again people are saying that wood burners or multi fuel stoves are much much cheaper to install, service and provide whole home heat.

Boiler servicing is so much more expensive due to mandatory, legally required courses that gas certified individuals have to attend annually. A fair number of local gas certified individuals have decided it’s not worth losing a weeks work and paying the course fees due to the falling households who have their boilers serviced. Which in turn is pushing up the price of those who are staying as gas certified. Good luck attempting to get an £65 boiler service. Apparently general plumbing pays much more as the market will sustain the costs.

The only cost comparable are those which consumers have to pay, not calorific output. Maybe listen to those of us that actually pay the bills?!