Help please. Neighbours proposed outbuilding. Anyone know about planning permission?

[fridaynight1]

I don't usually eavesdrop on my neighbours but it was a lovely afternoon, my family were all out doing their own thing so I thought I'd sit in the garden and enjoy a glass of wine, the sunshine and the silence.

I heard next door neighbour talking to a man (a builder I think) discussing a new outbuilding at the bottom of their garden. It's going to be huge. 6m x 6m. The full width of the garden and will pretty much take up almost half of the length of the garden. He wants to 'push' it out as big as possible.

The builder seemed a little taken aback at the size. Neighbour told him he would not be applying for planning permission as it would take to long. Told the 'builder' he would only be required to build 2/3rds of it this year - to keep it under permitted development rules and would want him to come back the following year and extend it.

We have low fences and shrubs separating our gardens and a 6m x 6m 'shed' is going to be very overbearing and probably a very big eyesore. I checked our deeds, our fence is shared and is a party wall. Can I stop this? Can he put it right up against our fence?
And can he even build something this size without planning permission?

There are rules about use, size and height, and it has to be a certain distance from the boundary.

If it's within all the measurements, and it's just a shed and not a dwelling, it will be low priority for the planning department. They will probably allow it to be honest.

Also it's all hearsay at the moment, as the neighbour hasn't actually said anything definite to you.

We were in the same position and the council wouldn't do anything until the building work had actually started (because there was nothing to object to up to that point). You might have to wait until he starts and then have a conversation.

How well do you get on with him? Do you think he would say anything to you?

What @BoogLoaf said.

Also to add though, they can only cover a maximum of 50% of the grounds surrounding the original house with building work. Has he previously done any extensions and/or conservatories? If so, the very large size of the shed might put him in breach of the 50% rule.

You can build a remarkably big building in your garden under Class E permitted development rights...

"Class E – buildings etc incidental to the enjoyment of a dwellinghouse
Permitted development
E. The provision within the curtilage of the dwellinghouse of—
(a) any building or enclosure, swimming or other pool required for a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse as such, or the maintenance, improvement or other alteration of such a building or enclosure; or
(b) a container used for domestic heating purposes for the storage of oil or liquid petroleum gas.
Development not permitted
E.1 Development is not permitted by Class E if—
(a) permission to use the dwellinghouse as a dwellinghouse has been granted only by virtue of Class G, M, MA, N, P, PA or Q of Part 3 of this Schedule (changes of use);
(b) the total area of ground covered by buildings, enclosures and containers within the curtilage (other than the original dwellinghouse) would exceed 50% of the total area of the curtilage (excluding the ground area of the original dwellinghouse);
(c) any part of the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated on land forward of a wall forming the principal elevation of the original dwellinghouse;
(d) the building would have more than a single storey;
(e) the height of the building, enclosure or container would exceed—
(i) 4 metres in the case of a building with a dual-pitched roof,
(ii) 2.5 metres in the case of a building, enclosure or container within 2 metres of the boundary of the curtilage of the dwellinghouse, or
(iii) 3 metres in any other case;
(f) the height of the eaves of the building would exceed 2.5 metres;
(g) the building, enclosure, pool or container would be situated within the curtilage of a listed building;
(h) it would include the construction or provision of a verandah, balcony or raised platform;"

@fridaynight1 have A look here
https://interactive.planningportal.co.uk/

They can't use the party wall without permission and the prev poster has given the link with all the details. You can also report it to the local council if you are concerned that it exceeds the rules. My local council has a really good website too which contains all of the local supplements to standard planning. So if you are in a conservation area or there may be a development framework for your local area then there may be some different rules applying.
If it looks like it does meet the permitted development guidelines then I simply suggest you think about how you will screen it off (maybe planting or a fence) and take regular photos during the build so if you do ever need to report it you have all the necessary things to hand.

Finally, if you get on well with your neighbours it may be worth chatting to them. Just say "oh I saw you had a builder round, are you getting something done?" And see what they say. If they want to remain on good terms they may offer some concessions or you could ask for some planting their side or some upgrade to the boundary wall which they can do at the same time. I'd certainly be offering that if it were me

We don’t know them at all really. They only moved in a couple of months ago. We introduced ourselves and said hi a few times. Due to all the shrubs and greenery that divides our 2 gardens we can’t chat over the fence.

He has definitely started work on something as the hedge is getting thinner by the day and some trees have been removed. And from an upstairs window I can see almost half the garden has been flattened.

I’ll do a bit of gardening today and if I hear him out there I’ll go round.

It’s going to be huge. What is worrying me is that he plans on building this thing by getting round planning laws. It’s like he knows it’s too big but if he builds it in 2 half’s he will get away with it.

The area is not 50% of the garden but it’s pretty close. He sounded like he’d done his research and was keeping it within permitted development - for the first section of the build. Waiting a year and then extending it.

I think we need a photo or diagram!

I do t know if it makes any difference but he is also going to be having an extension built at the back of his house. He told us this when he first moved in.

Where exactly is it going to be an eyesore from? Cos it sounds like you can't even see into his garden from yours for it to be an eyesore.

I’ll try but I’m on my phone atm. Will have a go on my laptop.

He’s clearing away all the shrubs. Rhododendrons, Camellias, Dogwood etc. Tree wise between us there are couple of slow growing conifers, an apple tree and a Robinia - nothing is more than about 8-10 foot high.

Big gaps are starting to appear. We have shrubs the same size on our side too but because of the size of them they have merged together and formed a border.

The fence panel that is in there is only 3 foot so pretty redundant until now.

It’s not the garden I’m too bothered about, I can put more plants in on my side.

What bothers me more is that he is planning on getting round planning rules in such a way.

I'd feel the same way. A friend is experiencing something similar; her neighbour is building a garden room that she knows is in breach of the rules (too high) but says she doesn't care and is going to do it anyway. In her situation, and yours, I'd be fuming and want to do all I can to ensure that the correct rules are followed. Ultimately the rules should apply to everyone, and these people are behaving selfishly and unreasonably. But you need to weigh all this up with the potential impact on neighbourly relations, and your own peace of mind. There's a quote from somewhere: "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?". If the impact on you and your property is limited and manageable, it may be easier to do nothing, except keep records and take photos. Your neighbour may get his comeuppance if and when he sells the house, as any permissions required but not in place will be picked up by the buyer's solicitor, I would think.

@ClematisBlue49 that's a good point about selling, my dd was buying a house that had a garden room and it turned out it had been built without planning permission so she didn't buy it and she suspected she wasn't the first buyer to drop out of that particular sale.
@fridaynight1 maybe you could have a casual conversation with him along the lines of it being impossible to sell on, maybe he'll think again? Probably not but perhaps it hasn't occurred to him.

Doing it in 2 phases doesn't make it legit and there's a few cases where councils make people take down extensions etc that breach the planning guidelines. If he's also going to do an extension to the house then he'll certainly be over permitted development rules and into a planning application and this will all be scrutinised.

If he wants to build a large shed that's currently inside guidelines not much you can do other than think about planting or a higher fence. Take pics throughout though and make sure you have something in the picture that can be used as a reference measure.

Thank you everyone. I did think that perhaps I was being unreasonable because it's his garden and if he wants a giant shed in it then it's up to him. But - the getting round planning rules is the bit that's disturbing me. I know someone once said that rules are meant to be broken but I like rules and at the end of the day they are there for a reason.

I've not gone outside yet but I can see he is out there. He's just putting up a little shed nearer the house at the moment. It looks old and the door is brown and the side facing me is grey. Oh God I'm going to be living next door to shed city aren't I?

DH says I should go out and casually slip into the conversation that I work for the council 🙃

@fridaynight1 slipping in that you work for the council you might come unstuck, why not make it a bit obscure and say your sister (or someone) works for the council?

It's v tricky cos you don't yet know the finer details..

will it be a timber shed? Or something more permanent/brick built?

What's it going to be used for?

When he has the extension done he will have to involve Planning and Building Control, it will be attached to the house, you will be notified being next door. He will have to involve them at some point.

The builder may not want to start work on the 'shed' unless it's been cleared by Planning.

I would be having a casual chat, or maybe your DH could strike up a conversation about 'man-caves'...

Firstly, I assume you are in England - other parts of the UK have different rules.
Building in 2 phases doesn't get round the 50% rule. If you remove the area of the original house from the size of the plot, you cannot cover more than half of the remaining area with extensions, outbuildings, garages etc without requiring PP.
I would report to the Council at the first sign of any building work. They can then investigate exactly what is going on.

From the conversation I overheard yesterday

Yes timber
It will be part garage/part workshop/part garden room (don't know which bit will be added later)
Builder said keeping apex roof on 6mx6m structure under 2.5m may be a problem.
Extension is at architect stage. I get the feeling he wants the shed finished before planning for house is submitted.

Surely a combination of extension and shed will be in breach of the 50% rule.

I’d have a chat with the neighbour and then have a chat with the planning dep for advice. They will know what’s legal or not.

Try and grab him for a friendly chat. Our neighbours run a business from home. Initially I thought it was a granny flat they were putting in but it was a home office and while it was initially unsettling it actually has zero impact on me . In fact if anything my children playing in our back garden must annoy them when they are working. I get you on the planning permission thing though that would really annoy me as well.

Just to add that you can't rely on the builder not wanting to start work on the shed until planning permission is given... In my friend's situation, the company building the garden room is going ahead regardless. When I had a summerhouse built there was wording in the contract to the effect that the onus is on the homeowner to ensure all permissions were in place.

I think it’s obvious he wants to build that, then extension and build extension to encompass pre-existing garden room/shed whatever. Get council in asap to pull the plug.