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Original poster

Help please. Neighbours proposed outbuilding. Anyone know about planning permission?

69 replies

fridaynight1 · 13/08/2023 00:37

I don't usually eavesdrop on my neighbours but it was a lovely afternoon, my family were all out doing their own thing so I thought I'd sit in the garden and enjoy a glass of wine, the sunshine and the silence.

I heard next door neighbour talking to a man (a builder I think) discussing a new outbuilding at the bottom of their garden. It's going to be huge. 6m x 6m. The full width of the garden and will pretty much take up almost half of the length of the garden. He wants to 'push' it out as big as possible.

The builder seemed a little taken aback at the size. Neighbour told him he would not be applying for planning permission as it would take to long. Told the 'builder' he would only be required to build 2/3rds of it this year - to keep it under permitted development rules and would want him to come back the following year and extend it.

We have low fences and shrubs separating our gardens and a 6m x 6m 'shed' is going to be very overbearing and probably a very big eyesore. I checked our deeds, our fence is shared and is a party wall. Can I stop this? Can he put it right up against our fence?
And can he even build something this size without planning permission?

OP posts:
AbraKedavra · 13/08/2023 18:58

Stop being so bitter. It's his property, let him do as he pleases. Unless of course you prefer to make the world a nastier place.

Davros · 13/08/2023 19:08

I believe you can only used Permitted Development once. So either shed or extension in those rules but not both

Seeline · 13/08/2023 19:25

The 30sq m is Building Regs not planning.

As I've said you can only cover half your plot (excluding the footprint of the original House) with extensions, sheds, garages etc without requiring PP.
If you are in a conservation area or AONB the restrictions are even tighter.
Some posted the actual details up thread - you can check the planning portal too.

Seeline · 13/08/2023 19:26

Davros · 13/08/2023 19:08

I believe you can only used Permitted Development once. So either shed or extension in those rules but not both

No necessarily - it will depend on the overall area being covered.

johnd2 · 13/08/2023 19:29

fridaynight1 · 13/08/2023 16:25

He knows his 6x6m shed is too big and needs planning permission but he doesn’t want to wait for planning. He wants to crack on straight away. So to get round it from what I gathered, the plan is to:

  1. build a shed at just under permitted development size 30sqm. ( I will keep an eye on roof height)
  2. apply for planning permission for his extension
  3. build extension
  4. get the builder back to make his shed bigger - but only after extension is built and signed off

"He knows his 6x6m shed is too big and needs planning permission but he doesn’t want to wait for planning."
You can think that if you want but it doesn't change the facts.
You think about what you want, let him think about what he wants. But it's not worth getting in a stress because someone isn't following the rules properly, particularly if you don't actually know the rules.

Davros · 13/08/2023 19:34

Seeline interesting... I was told by the architects we are using that we need PP for side extension as the loft has already been (half) done and would have used up our Permitted Development. I didn't see any calculations or question it

Seeline · 13/08/2023 19:42

@Davros pre-1995, there was a total volume increase limit on all extensions to a house, but not since then. There is the 'not covering more than half the site in extensions, outbuildings etc' limit, but a dormer wouldn't be included in that.
There are other restrictions which might make your extension require PP, but it won't be due to the dormer.

NB this is for England - maybe different in other parts of the UK

MillWood85 · 13/08/2023 19:43

During lockdown, our NDN's opposite built a massive bar to the front of their house so it's basically taken over 80% of their front garden. It's got a concrete base, walls, a solid tile roof, guttering and power supply. It's also right on the boundary to the road. The noise nuisance is horrendous, but because the local council was so bogged down in planning backlogs, it was deemed "impudent" to enforce the planning breach. I'm absolutely furious still and am seriously considering going to the planning ombudsman.

I would get the council on board the moment you see any sign of building work.

rileynexttime · 13/08/2023 20:36

"impudent" do what???

Davros · 13/08/2023 20:47

@Seeline I don't think we need PP then. The side extension won't be over 50% of the outside area. We are in a conservation area but this is at the back, not visible from the front. I'll get into the Council and architect tomorrow before it's submitted

lostparcel · 13/08/2023 20:58

Do you live in a conservation area? If so, he needs planning permission.

Davros · 13/08/2023 22:25

Thanks

CircleWithin · 14/08/2023 15:18

People are confusing different types of permitted development and planning permission.

If you are doing a permitted development you don't need planning permission.

If you are doing an extension this may be a class A permitted development. There are limits on location and size (which vary for conservation area etc) but if you stay within the limits no planning permission is needed.

If you are building a garden room, this may be class E permitted development. Again there are limits on location and size and the specific limits are in my pervious post.

In BOTH cases the development can't exceed 50% of the curtilage surrounding the original house (in most cases curtilage means garden).

So if he builds a big garden room that covers 50%, then he loses his permitted development rights to do a class A extension.

If he builds a smaller garden room then he can still build a class A extension without planning permission as long as the total land developed is less than the 50% allowance.

If he builds a smaller garden room then an extension and after that wants to make his garden room bigger, then he can only do this using permitted development rights if he's still under 50%. If by that point he's used up 50% of the space then he would need planning permission and without it, the bigger garden room would be unlawful.

Google the 'planning geek' website - it's really good for interpreting planning law.

BlueMongoose · 14/08/2023 18:29

AbraKedavra · 13/08/2023 18:58

Stop being so bitter. It's his property, let him do as he pleases. Unless of course you prefer to make the world a nastier place.

A slightly different view from me- if he wants a bigger house he should have bought a bigger house. This isn't a small extension, which most of us would think was fine, to accommodate an extra room or two of normal size. It's a massive outbuilding. As well as an extension to the house.
IMO PP should always be required for anything more than a few metres' single-storey extension to a main house. Sheds and outbuildings should be limited to no more than, say 1/10th of the back garden at max- unless the garden is very small and that would make the shed unusably small.

BlueMongoose · 14/08/2023 18:33

CircleWithin · 14/08/2023 15:18

People are confusing different types of permitted development and planning permission.

If you are doing a permitted development you don't need planning permission.

If you are doing an extension this may be a class A permitted development. There are limits on location and size (which vary for conservation area etc) but if you stay within the limits no planning permission is needed.

If you are building a garden room, this may be class E permitted development. Again there are limits on location and size and the specific limits are in my pervious post.

In BOTH cases the development can't exceed 50% of the curtilage surrounding the original house (in most cases curtilage means garden).

So if he builds a big garden room that covers 50%, then he loses his permitted development rights to do a class A extension.

If he builds a smaller garden room then he can still build a class A extension without planning permission as long as the total land developed is less than the 50% allowance.

If he builds a smaller garden room then an extension and after that wants to make his garden room bigger, then he can only do this using permitted development rights if he's still under 50%. If by that point he's used up 50% of the space then he would need planning permission and without it, the bigger garden room would be unlawful.

Google the 'planning geek' website - it's really good for interpreting planning law.

I suspect the bloke is thinking that if he makes the overall footprint bigger, he will keep being allowed another 50% of the now larger footprint. However obviously stupid and illogical that would be if true, there are always some barrack room lawyers who think that way. As you say, it's 50% of the house as first built- before any extensions, porches, conservatories....

Seeline · 14/08/2023 19:13

No - it's 50% of the 'garden' area once the footprint of the original house has been removed (it's actually the curtilage rather than the garden, so front area too. It's usually the whole plot, but not always).

Diyextension · 14/08/2023 19:23

BlueMongoose · 14/08/2023 18:29

A slightly different view from me- if he wants a bigger house he should have bought a bigger house. This isn't a small extension, which most of us would think was fine, to accommodate an extra room or two of normal size. It's a massive outbuilding. As well as an extension to the house.
IMO PP should always be required for anything more than a few metres' single-storey extension to a main house. Sheds and outbuildings should be limited to no more than, say 1/10th of the back garden at max- unless the garden is very small and that would make the shed unusably small.

Show quote history

36m2 is not a massive outbuilding, the op looks to have a sizeable garden so I’m assuming next doors is the same ?

he might just have a big model train set or something similar that needs the space ?

Ideaswoman · 14/08/2023 19:25

My main takeaway from this thread is Omg your garden is stunning, can we have more pics please!!!!

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