Difficult neighbour WWYD

[IceandIndigo]

We are having a loft conversion done on our Victorian terrace house. We are end terrace and the last house on the street. Three of the houses on the neighbouring street have gardens that run right up to our gable wall - so our wall forms the boundary between the properties. It's a hip to gable conversion so the works will involve building up the gable wall, and there will need to be scaffolding to enable the builders to access that wall. As two of the three neighbours have sheds at the back of their gardens that extend right up to our house wall, the only real option is to put scaffolding footings in the garden of the third neighbour.

We don't know that neighbour well, although we've never had any issues with them - we've been living in this house for 8 years. As far as we know there is a young man (mid 20s) who lives there with his mother, and they've recently acquired a large dog - crossbreed, looks part mastiff. We can see into their garden from our side window and they basically never use it, other than the dog is sometimes out there by itself. The garden is not maintained and is just overgrown grass and pavers, no plants or flowerbeds or garden furniture. For this reason we didn't really anticipate that there would be problems with the scaffolding.

To cut a very long story short, the neighbour initially gave permission for the scaffolding, but today the scaffolders have arrived and it appears he has had second thoughts, because he's concerned that our building works will stress his dog out. Apparently the dog is home alone during the day and if it sees or hears anything unusual it gets anxious and wrecks the house. The neighbour suggested we could postpone our building works until the summer when he is off work and can better manage the dog. This isn't an option for us. We offered to screen the scaffolding so at least the dog won't be able to see people moving around but he felt the noise would still be an issue.

To add an additional complication the neighbour has just this morning informed us that the property is rented. Apparently his mother has been in touch with the landlord who is ok with the scaffolding but said he would need to do an inspection first - this doesn't really make much sense as it's not a Party Wall and there's nothing in the garden that could be damaged. We asked for the landlord's contacts details so we can clarify with them directly but the neighbour now isn't responding to our messages and won't answer the door. We've had to send the scaffolders away for the day with the job half finished.

Anyone have any advice on how to deal with this, we are at our wits end. If our builders can't start next week we are going to get bumped from their schedule.

@IceandIndigo
This almost exact scenario happened with 2 of my old neighbours a few years ago. To 'solve' the problem neighbour 1, who was having work carried out, 'rented' a portion of neighbour 2's garden to errect scaffolding. N1 then had a new temporary 6ft wooden fence put around the scaffolding to fence it off from N2 for the 3 months the work was taking place. It actually worked really well and didn't look too bad from N2's garden as it was fenced off. Yes more expensive to buy the fences etc but it was a viable option for both neighbours. I suppose it depends how big the gardens are and time of year / needing to use them etc.

If the wall of your house forms the boundary wall then the party wall legislation does apply.

Offering to pay for doggy daycare for that period is really not a bad idea. Keeping neighbourly relations working well.

As a renter, I get frustrated when I see posts like some on here that speak of going to the landlord. As a renter, you have the right to quiet enjoyment. that can include not allowing scaffolding. Your builders want to do it for their ease but they can do it without. When you then go over the head to the landlord who gives permission you have basically told your neighbours you give two fs about their life. As longas yours goes how you want.

Surely the LL needs to know about and consent to works on or which may affect their property. What if there were some kind major damage? The tenants would not be happy to pay for that. I vote for getting in touch with the landlord or if the neighbours turn out to rent via an agency you could try them.
It sounds to me as though you have offered a
lot of solutions and compromises and none has been accepted. I also agree with PP who say that the LL may not be aware of the dog which doesn’t sound well socialised (won’t do what mother says, not good with people etc.)
I realise that the fact that the property is rented has only just come to light but surely it makes a big difference.

Well said.

We have a house which we rent to tenants and I would be furious if the neighbours expected them to just comply to their needs and demands because they rent. In this situation, if I was the landlord, I would be telling OP to do one. A tenant has every right to have a say, it is their home. Also trying to trying to use the dog as leverage is pretty low.

Of course you have to go to the landlord. The landlord is the only one who can authorise it.

What happens if the tennant authorises it and it causes damage ? Is the tennant going to pay for that ? How many tenancy agreements give tenants the right to authorise building works on the property ?

The correct procedure is to approach the landlord, and then the landlord should ask the tenant what they want in terms of minimising disruption/compensation etc. Bypassing the landlord just isn't possible if you are to have a proper agreement.

I clearly stated " go over the head to the landlord" NO Where did I suggest you didn't speak with the landlord. However, if the tenant says no then why go to the landlord to force the issue? Like I said " right to quiet enjoyment" Frankly most of us who rents pay a small fortune for that right only for people to look down their noses at it.

All of this in spades.

Generally the tenant doesn't have the right to say either yes or no to the neighbour on matters like this, unless they have a very strange tenancy agreement. Generally they only have the right to say yes or no to the landlord.

Which is why the normal procedure would be for the neighbour first has to ask the landlord, who then has to confirm with the tenant. It's the landlords responsibility to ensure that their contractual/statutory obligations to the tenant are met during any process that they authorise the neighbour to undertake.

It's not that hard.

For the third time. "The tenant has the right to quiet enjoyment" This can include refusing neighbours access for scaffolding. The landlord can not force this. The landlord has to give the ultimate permission for stuff to occur on their property. However, the next-door neighbours scaffolding for an extension doesn't = one of the times where the landlord's right to enter overrules the tenant's "right to quiet enjoyment"

It would be prudent and nice to communicate nicely with the neighbours and find a good way forward by speaking with the landlord and the neighbour. However, the tenant really does have the right to state they do not want people on the property as it infringes on the right to their quiet enjoyment. UNLESS it is an emergency. Scaffolding for an extension for NND is not an emergency.

I would argue the "normal procedure" would be to speak with the NND who is living there. Get the landlord's details and then contact Landlord CC in NND. Nicely does it.

Again I am not stating the tenant has the right to permit scaffolding. However, they have the right to quiet enjoyment of the property they are spending their money on. The NND does not have the right to erect scaffolding in someone else's garden. Hence my seconding the suggestion to offer to pay for doggy daycare to keep neighbourly relations nice and comfortable. Rub their back they may rub yours in return.

Clearly it " is that hard" as you don't appear to have any comprehension of what " right to quiet enjoyment" entails. Like many on here.

As someone else already said - what if the 3rd neighbour also had a shed?

There will be a solution which doesn't involve using his garden.

He's not being difficult but it sounds like you are being arrogant

I have to say that whilst I agree the neighbour has to right to change their mind, I would be pretty upset if they did it as the scaffolding arrived. You seem calmer that I would be and I suspect hoping to sort this out without having to get the work done a different way that is more expensive. Hopefully it will work out.

I’m stunned that people have had experience with neighbours not making good damage caused by building work and scaffolding. Now that is arrogant and entitled behaviour.

I do think the state of the neighbour’s garden is relevant too. We live in the middle of nowwhere with just a couple of neighbours. When fibre cable was put in, the neighbours asked if their cables could go through our beautiful but messy (in a beautiful wild garden sort of way, honest) garden rather than through their beautiful cultivated garden. Or course we could have said no but we we said yes as it helped them out and was neighbourly to do. I can’t image their faces if I’d told them we had changed our minds (however legitimate the reason was) on the day the contractor came to do the work.

I also not impressed that people think it’s ok that someone might have a pet without their landlord’s permission - and I say that as someone who rented for 20 years with many cats and 2 dogs. I would never have lied.

How does she sound snooty and entitled. She's just trying to work out the best way to get it done. The neighbour did an unexpected 360 so not helpful at all.
What do you think the OP should do??

Thanks @CopperMaran that’s exactly it, it was frustrating and actually pretty embarrassing to have to send the scaffolders away when we thought we had everything sorted with the neighbours. We approached the neighbours several weeks ago and they said they were ok with it, I’m not sure what more we could have done. None of the various professionals involved suggested to us that we needed a party wall agreement with this particular neighbour, although we are getting one with the neighbours on the other side. DH had taken annual leave to be at home for the scaffolders and now has had to rearrange another day at short notice, without even knowing for sure if it will go ahead on the new date, and we’ve both been worried that this issue is going to nix our entire building project. It’s been pretty stressful.

I mentioned the condition of the garden because I do think it’s material to know that we’re not proposing to put scaffolding on top of someone’s flower bed or expensive patio furniture etc, because surely one of the main issues with scaffolding is the potential for damage. And the fact that the neighbours barely use the garden is relevant because if they were out there every day enjoying the space the amenity loss would be greater.

There’s been some helpful advice on the thread but people are posting about problems they’ve had with scaffolding outside kitchen windows etc which really isn’t relevant to this situation where the scaffolding is at the bottom of the neighbours’ garden and nowhere near their house.

I get what people are saying about the landlord but I’m really reluctant to go behind the tenants’ back to obtain their details as the tenants are the people I have to live next to and I want to retain a cordial relationship with them. I understand the point about damage and liability but I can’t really see that there’s anything we could practically damage, so I’m willing to take that risk.

What happens if you get the tenants "permission", the scaffold is erected and then the dog kicks off like crazy and the tenant demands you take it down ?

Have you spoken to anyone who is expert in this and found out what they think ?

This is now where you lose all reasonable arguments, speaking politely all along, those words along with a few before suggest you feel you are so so entitled to put your scaffolding into their overgrown lawn and: The neighbour suggested we could postpone our building works until the summer when he is off work and can better manage the dog. This isn't an option for us. It's not an option for him, it's not up to you what is an option or not, pure and utter cheek. I hope they never let you in. You bought your property as it stands and tough shit if someone else's life gets in the way. CF alert. Really tough shit.

Well you’ve given me a good laugh. Sure, I’m a CF for wanting to improve my own property, after living there for 8 years and never bothering the neighbours. Lots of loft conversions happening in my neighbourhood so I guess there are a lot of CFs around here!!

What if neither the property owner or the tenant is willing to take the risk of the scaffolding being on the property without a formal agreement in place? You don’t get to make that decision for them.

have you thought about the fact that many builders tend to throw refuse and nails down off from heights. A dog owner should be particularly concerned about that.

What a load of shit.

Posted too soon. The OP gave reasonable notice, neighbour gave permission. On the day the scaffolding was due to go up, he withdrew it. Who is the CF here ? Unless the scaffolding is interfering with entry to his property the neighbour is the one being unreasonable. And if this scuppers the plans for the building work, if I were the OP I would be lying in wait for ANY opportunity to make life difficult for the neighbour. And they better hope that there is no reason they need to have the OP’s cooperation for anything they are doing. It’s called being a good neighbour, and getting along, not being a dick and making things difficult just because you can.

Perhaps an option would be to offer to pay for your neighbours dog to go into doggy day care whilst the scaffolding is there.

Go onto HM Land registry ( who owns that property ) that should give you the landlords name and address, were you can contact him.

(Genuinely trying to be helpful) in relation to this “None of the various professionals involved suggested to us that we needed a party wall agreement with this particular neighbour, although we are getting one with the neighbours on the other side.”

Go back to your solicitor and ask specifically why they didn’t recommend any special legal considerations for this neighbour.

What a load of shit, the neighbour does not have to do anything you fool 😂 I would be lying in wait for ANY opportunity to make life difficult for the neighbour. petty, nasty person.