anyone thinking of buying a Mccarthey stone retirement flat DONT

[Isseywith3witchycats]

3 years ago my MIL died and to date trying to sell her flat in Braintree has been an absolute nightmare, 1st buyer found a cheaper one, second buyer pulled out on exchange day current buyer has been waiting for paperwork to come from them which has taken forever just about to go to exchanging paperwork and they have now said prospective buyer can not buy it as she is 58 years old this flat was bought 15 years ago for £147000 and even at £105000 which was what we accepted still cannot seem to sell it, thing is in the complex its in its one of the best ones large due to being on a corner and ground floor so direct access to the gardens and have had a brand new boiler put in and over the three years it has cost service charges so god knows what we are going to do when whats left of the estate money has gone 7 heirs so each heir wont get a massive amount of money

There's a new McCarthy Stone development in our nearest town. A friend took her 93 year old dad to have a look, as he currently lives in a large house he can no longer maintain very well.

Purchase prices range from £275,000 to £475,000 which in itself he could manage as his house is worth maybe £500k. But the service charge is £700 per month, not including any cleaning inside his flat etc as mentioned previously. It's just for cleaning & maintenance of the communal areas.

It shouldnt do, who actually owns it at present, the estate?

Then the money that your husband has paid out, comes back out the estate once the inheritance is paid out to everyone. Any charges/debts left at the end of the dealings also comes out of the settlement

So if for example you end up selling it for 60k, but you've paid out 10k in charges thus far, plus ctax, plus any debts accruing once your husband needs to let the service charge debts build up, lets say it accrues another 10, then the inheritance to be shared out ends up being 40k, minus any IHT and capital gains if applicable.

I just looked at one that was second hand and it was a M+S (in fact wouldnt it be good if actual M+S did retirement flats... not just a retirement flat, its an M+S retirement flat)

Anyway, I saw one for about 90k, just a one bed, but the service charge was 12k a year!!!!!!!!!!!!

So in 10 years if you stayed that long, you would spend just over 200k on it altogether if the service charge didnt increase.

I was helping my parents look at them and actually getting a viewing on some of these flats is almost impossible as you have to jump so many hoops first. We ended up with a bungalow which has had its own challenges. But a year on most of the retirement flats are still on the market.

Service charges - what they go on:

If you live in a Retirement Living development your service charge includes:

Paying for the House Manager – they ensure the development runs smoothly
All maintenance of the building and grounds, including window cleaning, gardening and upkeep of the building exteriors and communal areas
A 24-hour emergency call system
Monitored fire alarms and door camera entry security systems
Buildings insurance, water and sewerage rates
Maintaining lifts
Heating and lighting in communal areas.

When I'm older / less independent, I wonder if I'd prefer this kind of set up

modaliving.com/live/why-moda#

There's a new McCarthy Stone development in our nearest town. A friend took her 93 year old dad to have a look, as he currently lives in a large house he can no longer maintain very well.

Purchase prices range from £275,000 to £475,000 which in itself he could manage as his house is worth maybe £500k. But the service charge is £700 per month, not including any cleaning inside his flat etc as mentioned previously. It's just for cleaning & maintenance of the communal areas.

I would say at 93 he's probably missed the boat for M&S .
All apartments get a one hour clean each week . That's included in the service charge .

Theres only 9 of those in the whole country. Not sure they're meant for the elderly.

@bellac11 As you say, they're not specifically designed for elderly, but probably feels safe and convenient, with a concierge around, and it's the landlord's responsibility to arrange boiler repairs etc. I think I'd probably like to be surrounded by tenants of all ages. And convenient to clear the house and hand back the keys when the time comes, rather than trying to sell a retirement flat

Yes, I like the fact that they can have pets and I see they have cycle storage

I noticed there was no reference to rental prices though, unless I missed it, I looked at the Leeds one just to gauge an idea.

www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/find/Moda/New-York-Square.html?locationIdentifier=BRANCH%5E246707&propertyStatus=all&includeLetAgreed=true&_includeLetAgreed=on

Here is the answer, wow!!!

@bellac11 Wow, expensive ! Will be interesting to see if it takes off. I like the concept, and it seems flexible, but not a budget option

But even student accommodation seems expensive nowadays
www.thisisfresh.com/leeds/the-refinery/flexfloorplancomparision/0/I

@OldEnoughToHaveReadBunty

please don’t enter into this purchase. To be blunt, your Dad is much too old to buy an independent living flat, the likelihood of him being able to live there, even with drop in carers , for many years is very small.

I don’t mean to offend you, but a friend of mine relative did this at a similar age and within eighteen months had a stroke and needed to move into a care home. So they were up for two sets of fees.

Agreed. I've heard horror stories before .

I think the difficulty is not so much that they are hard for family members to sell after an elderly person's death - as people have said, the point of them is convenience and support for the elderly person. However I have heard of people who really struggled when a distant family member was in this kind of property but when they later needed more care than sheltered accommodation could provide and the property needed to be sold for the elderly person to move into full time care .

There's a tendency to buy into them too late. With hindsight I would include my mother in that scenario. She was hail and hearty, we thought, but at 80 years old it was only a matter of time. After barely three years with M&S she became terminally ill very suddenly and died within months. I think we (me) like to believe our parents will live forever.

It would be interesting to see a calculation of average loss made vs renting for the average period of ownership. I know everyone will be different but would be interesting to see over an average what is cheaper. Obviously renting also has the added bonus of being able to walk away easily if different care levels are needed.

My MIL recently moved to an 'independent living' over 60s complex, she's in her mid 80s. My DH is her only child and she lived 4.5 hours drive away from us. She was getting increasingly frail and unable to manage comfortably. We live in a big expensive city and the proceeds of her house just about covered the 2 bed apartment close to us, although there were shared ownership options available if needed. The complex is a joint venture between a local housing charity and a HA, and residents included a mix of private owners, social tenants and shared ownership (all over 60s).
My only regret is that it didn't happen sooner. We can pop in most days, help out with chores she can't manage, make sure she's eating properly etc. Most importantly she gets to spend lots of time with her grandchildren and her son. The flat itself is modern, bright, warm, low maintenance and safe. The service charge is high (£300pm), but she's saving lots on heating bills and maintenance costs compared to her old house. She's made lots of friends and has a great social life. Although I think she sometimes misses her old house, she often tells me that's she's very happy now. There's no way she could have afforded to move closer to us if this option had not been available to her. And although she may end up in care I feel that this set up is optimal for her current needs, and even if it's just for a few years, it's been a great decision. Whatever happens when she dies, we will know that she was comfortable and happy. I have no Idea how easy it will be to sell when the time comes, there's not that many of this type of development around us to compare to. Personally I don't mind if it is sold for less than she paid for it, the improvement in her quality of life is well worth it.

My friend has been trying to sell her mother’s retirement flat for about 3 years. It’s gone down in value and there are five other flats in the building that are not selling. Biggest rip off ever.

I work for one of these style of developments not m&s but one of their rivals.

The biggest issue I habe as a development manager (I believe m&s call them house manager) is people have not read their lease through and do not get what they are responsible for. I spend many hours showing my residents the lease and where it says they are responsible for the windows but not the frames for example.

I wish I had known about them to encourage mil to move into one. I think she would have thrived and her last years where she was less mobile woild have still had people close.

Service charge covers a lot.of things people do not consider. Like insurance for the building asbestos reports. And yearly.fire inspections. I work part time as a manager 3 days a week. It is often an enjoyable working day but can also be frustrating when they are stuck in their way. Like how dare I turn the table cloth that way we ALWAYS have it the other way.

It's sad when one of our residents die and joyful when we get new ones move in. Covid really blocked the sales for us and when I started working 15 months ago we had 5 empty flats. We went to 6 and now have 3. 1 sold subject to contract. So we are seeing movement. In the sales.

The company I work for will allow rentals the residents however are not keen and are trying to block this .. they won't hear me when I explain due to their prices it won't be a issue as it won't be a cheap rental. This is an expensive. Kent Town I'm talking off.

For me I think they are a good option but as a development manager I often feel I am spending my time sorting personal differences not actually doing my job.

I currently cover a 2nd development due to them not having a DM. They will get a reduction due to this not happening. However with the electric crisis it will be eaten up soon enough as commercial lights are not capped. We are looking at a 300% increase this has to come out of the service charge.

I try my best to help and support but I know some feel I block when I stick to the rules. However I can live with that. Overall its a nice job.

@Enko It is clear in the lease? If you are having to explain it often perhaps your company needs to make it clearer from the offset.

Most non-retirement flats have much lower service charges that cover fire inspections, communal cleaning, communal light and heat, gardening, window cleaning, sometimes a 24hr concierge. I used to pay £300 a month for those things. What are the retirement apartments offering that justifies service charges of £7.5k - £10k a year? Genuinely interested.

@Flapjackquack. Its a lease so within how easy you find a lease to read. Some find them ok others struggle. I find most have not.l bothered to actually read through them.

What are the retirement apartments offering that justifies service charges of £7.5k - £10k a year
I do not know. The one I am with does not have that high a service charge. Ours are not much higher than yours was.

Even if you did this (can you, is it possible?) it wouldn't solve the problems for everyone.

Refusing the inheritance, if that's possible, would be a good solution for those who can afford to live but can't afford the additional charges for the retirement flat.

For those on means tested benefits, a property you don't live in is counted as if you had cash in the bank. So as well as being liable for all the charges, inheriting would cause their benefits to stop. If they give away an asset, that's deliberate deprevation of assets and would see the benefits being stopped too. I'm not sure they'd be allowed to refuse an inheritance. Or I mean, they could, but I suspect they'd be fucked either way.

Someone mentioned leaving it to charity or nobody.

Lots of charities don't have a huge cashflow and if people started leaving these flats to them, they'd have insufficient income to cover the charity's running costs and pay all the service charges etc on these flats until sold. For some charities, being left just one flat would be enough to cause this issue.

Leaving it to nobody means your relatives would have to be traced, even distant ones, and they'd inherit it. Only if you had no living relatives would it go to the government.

It's not as simple as drop the price and sell it. Someone mentioned already a flat for £10k still on the market in an area where they're sold new for £175k. It's not just a matter of price, people don't want them full stop. I imagine the issue is that they're bought by affluent people not bargain hunters. They'll go straight to the source because it's quicker and easier than seeking out a decent second hand one. They know if they get a new one it'll come with all the building guarantees of a new property and most likely won't need any major work done to it in their lifetime. They can just move straight in and get on with life. With second hand properties in general there's almost always something comes up quite soon that needs fixing and the greater likelihood of needing major works at some point during their lifetime. If these elderly, retired, affluent types can afford to avoid the inconvenience of this, they will. So they buy new and hardly anyone even looks for a second hand one.

For the people living there, it'll impact on the whole "community" aspect if half the properties are empty. As well as not being able to personally do anything about any useless employees, as someone else mentioned. So not quite the utopia they're being sold as then.

Fascinating and very grateful for this thread

So not quite the utopia they're being sold as then
indeed, now that you've set out the implications I can see that these properties function as millstones around the necks of the descendants, an albatross that you will never be rid of😵