london property and schools

[lizhandle]

dh and i are currently looking to move house and are trying to find a nice area to move to. we've only lived in london for a couple of years so dont know all that many parts, but i have been really surprised that lots of areas that seem cool like in E/SE London are complete blackholes for schools or have really poor secondary schools...so what do people do? and i mean we have been priced out of lots of so-called cool areas anyway - but does everyone just leave the minute their kids come up to secondary? or will people stay and schools get increasingly better? had a quick look at large places such from Nunhead down to Sydenham etc seem to have very poor provisoins although people seem to be really selling them - but it's the same in ELondon too. any tips and ideas?

apologies my caps key is currently out of action

What is yoir budget? Where in E/SE did you look?

our budget is 850k.....and we've spent a lot of time looking around areas such as ELondon - but even places like Walthamstow or even Wanstead though expensive are not all that great for secondaries. Similarly, love the stretch Sydenham/Honor Oak, Brockley, Nunhead....but again seems like a massive compromise. They are all seen as great family areas, but what do people do once they hit secondary?

What age are your children? In London (and other parts of England) proximity to the perceived best schools can drive house prices up. But which schools are the best can change. And sometimes reputations linger even if the school has changed. So if your children are toddlers, don't worry about Secondary yet. If they are 8//9/10, chose carefully.

Though Syd girls was Ok, and you've got the Harris's as well, again they're ok, if marmite, aren't they? Plus the Bex grammars.

I know several people who have moved to Streatham for schools, secondary in particular. South London also seems to have a ton of Harris Academies, which aren't everyone's cup of tea but do seem to get good results

We’re in East London not far from Wanstead and there are lots of good and outstanding state schools at primary and secondary.

Sydenham Girls is v popular.
I thought Hilly Fields, too.
Chance if a Lottery place at Kingsdale.
But not my area.
Streatham: stuffed with brilliant primaries, Dunraven, Norwood school getting ever more popular, Woodmansterne shaping up v well.

By what criteria are you judging these secondaries?

we have a boy and a girl so would need somewhere for both. this post is less about the areas but also just wondering what do people do. i really dont fancy having to up root us every few years so ideally would stay put. but am often surprised on mumsnet how often people recommend areas as family areas but then quickly mention that secondaries are rubbish, surely that means they arent family areas...no?

I think mumsnet can give a false sense of what's great and what's rubbish and the reality is that when you live in the area and go see the schools themselves when the time comes, they're rarely as great or as rubbish as the prevailing myths. On here, a lot of people seem to be comparing with private schools and super-selectives and jostling to get into the handful of Haberdashers, Graveneys, Tiffins, Kingsdales or highly coveted faith schools etc. But the truth is a lot of the 'normal' local secondaries are perfectly good and just have a mix of kids and staff like the rest of the country (or even better if some stats are to be believed). Obviously you don't want to be in a black hole so your kid has to travel miles, but the areas you're talking about have secondaries and they're generally good enough for most people. And by good enough, I don't mean a big compromise, I mean that they teach the same subjects as the fancy places and if your DC is able, they'll get on well there, and if they're not able, they'll probably be catered for better than a fancy place (unless it's a specialist for SEN). We're in SE London and the kids in my DC's cohort went to a surprising range of secondaries - some to Streatham, some Crystal Palace, some Norwood, some as far as Croydon. They all had pro's and cons, but were all good and it mainly came down to proximity and which school's approach you preferred.

I guess what I'm saying is don't get the wind put up you about 'rubbish' schools - a good primary will set the tone and as long as there's some secondaries in the area, when the time comes, you'll very likely be fine.

The naive areas have the joy of everyone who can afford it going for private secondary, so the state ones are unbalanced compared to primary. That also drives people moving out exacerbating the issue.

I moved out of London with my family for reasons other than schooling. What has been clear from my move is that the London obsession with school is in hindsight rather amusing. The sheer numbers of schools classified as good or outstanding versus their peers 40 miles from Greater London is huge when you leave and start looking.

So if I were looking again:
Proximity to decent school within walking distance of home at primary level. (As soon as you like it to work, you are locked into the specific job location and have a commute even when you are wfh)
Proximity to decent transport hub that gives a straightforward journey to schools on public transport to an 11+ yr old.
Proximity to 2+ secondary schools within 2 miles which is not an unreasonable walk to school at 2nd level.
Access to green space, local neighbourhood shopping etc

That only means some wealthier families move out, doesn't mean the kids still there are any less bright or nice, or any more dim or badly-behaved. There's a lot of kids in London, a good mix in those areas OP mentions, and most schools can maintain some kind of balance. I get what you're saying, but I've found the reality much less stressful than the anticipation and fear when they're little and it can feel like their lives will be ruined if we don't get them into 'the best schools' at all costs.

(That was in reference to Rollercoaster's point btw.)

Definitely worth looking at West Norwood. Lovely community, great schools both primary and secondary, and you'll get a nice 3 bed period house for your budget.

You are right about Walthamstow, and it is a worry. My DS is 6 and I'm really happy with his primary, but none of the secondary options are good for boys.

A lot of people move, some go private (mostly Forest), some trek to Latymer or Ilford Grammer. In our case we will probably have to move if the schools haven't improved - DS is showing no signs of academic greatness, so he will do best in an are where the ordinary local schools are solid.

Yes they get to year 5 and some move and some go private is the honest truth - especially in that 850k bracket.

The choices are hip area, not so good schools. Walthamstow, peckham etc etc
Unloved, uncool areas, great schools. Bromley, Sutton
Great area, great schools, astronomic house prices, Kingston and Richmond I'm looking at you.

I suppose we fit the stereotype - DS1 is in year 5 and we're in the process of moving to be in the catchment of a very sought-after outstanding state secondary, with a good back-up (also outstanding), just in case.

We were aiming for a 0.2 mile radius and still had a few options, with a budget of only slightly higher than yours. Sure, none of them were our dream house but the plan is to get both DCs settled at secondary and then review.

We’re in East London not far from Wanstead and there are lots of good and outstanding state schools at primary and secondary.

I live in the same area. The primaries are great. But the secondaries don't have the best reputation, despite the OFSTED ratings.

So many people round here seem to go private for secondary.

@lizhandle

our budget is 850k.....and we've spent a lot of time looking around areas such as ELondon - but even places like Walthamstow or even Wanstead though expensive are not all that great for secondaries. Similarly, love the stretch Sydenham/Honor Oak, Brockley, Nunhead....but again seems like a massive compromise. They are all seen as great family areas, but what do people do once they hit secondary?

“Not all that great for secondaries”

In 2019 there were about three state secondary schools in Redbridge who were deemed below average. Four were average. Five were above average. The rest were well above average. This is not including the high achieving private schools .

In neighbouring Newham one school had 41 applicants offered, and achieving grades for Oxbridge.

Most primary schools in both boroughs are achieving well above national standards too. Partly the extra (but necessary) money helps, but also good school leadership plays a huge part.

@sunlightbuttons we’re not actually in Wanstead, just near it. The state secondaries in my area are excellent - I don’t know anyone with children in private where we are. Tbh I think children with engaged and involved parents (ie those who are concerned enough to consider moving house for the right school) will do just fine pretty much anywhere.

thanks everyone. we were hoping not to have to move somewhere too far out or too suburban....at the moment somewhere like Streatham or Crystal Palace seem to be ok (not sure about finding a house there though). Anywere in ELondon that would fit the bill.....? We are also looking for a more settled community i.e. not somewhere where people will just decamp the minute we hit secondaries etc....am looking at you Forest Hill etc....and even Walthamstow...

Schools are often better than you think. I’m in London and I find it telling that my Dd, now at a Russell Group university, is at the same university with some friends from primary school (middle tables, not the super-bright) who went to very different secondary schools, varying between independent schools and the local “wouldn’t touch with a bargepole” school.

@daisypond that sounds about right. A friend's daughter went to state school in one of the areas mentioned above (as being less desirable) and left Oxford a couple of years ago with a first. Her best friend on the course was the privately educated granddaughter of somebody slightly famous. I have a lot of friends 15 years or so older than me with kids in their early 20's and they all went to ordinary inner city London comprehensives and were on the same degrees as privately educated kids who became good friends of theirs. Bright kids seem to do well anywhere and mistkuds find their 'tribe'at uni where kids have had a mix of types of secondary education.

As somebody said above it seems like the secondaries with good reputations are in dull areas (Finchley, Southgate...) and the secondaries I more buzzy areas dont have such great reputations. As far as I can tell the poor reputations are more just about being average rather than 'bad'.

Mine are 9 and 6 and we need to move for more space but looking at the secondaries as a whole including their social media accounts as some of the inner city schools eith average results do great enrichment and have links with companies in the City and excellent facilities and after school clubs. Just because only 50% are getting A-C GCSEs doeant make it a write off. (That's one of the things we look at too of course).

A friends child is at Arts and Media School in Islington which on paper and going by results isn't great but actually she is loving it. They have state of the art multi media facilities, nurturing environment and other great features. This is a very smart kid. Reputationally people are put off certain schools but do speak to parents. I woyldntmoveto a boring area just for what is on paper a great school.