london property and schools

[lizhandle]

dh and i are currently looking to move house and are trying to find a nice area to move to. we've only lived in london for a couple of years so dont know all that many parts, but i have been really surprised that lots of areas that seem cool like in E/SE London are complete blackholes for schools or have really poor secondary schools...so what do people do? and i mean we have been priced out of lots of so-called cool areas anyway - but does everyone just leave the minute their kids come up to secondary? or will people stay and schools get increasingly better? had a quick look at large places such from Nunhead down to Sydenham etc seem to have very poor provisoins although people seem to be really selling them - but it's the same in ELondon too. any tips and ideas?

*I wouldn't move

Sometimes in London, what may be deemed a bad/ dreadful /ordinary school is nothing of the sort. It just seems so to some parents who really want brilliant school X in the next borough, whereas local school Y is just fine. I was one who got sucked up in the school stress of it all, and I wish I hadn’t.

I’d consider Crystal Palace or Beckenham and neighbouring areas like Penge. Your money will go a lot further there and as you’re in Bromley Borough you’d have good options for primary and secondary schools.

@harrietm87 where are you then? I might move there

These are well in budget in Crystal Palace and would get you into a great primary and your top secondary options are Norwood School, Harris South Norwood (Upper Norwood site), Harris Crystal Palace and Kingsdale plus Elm Green in West Norwood and Norbury Manor (girls) -
www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/76448301#/
www.rightmove.co.uk/properties/75642504#/

That's just as an example. As PP says, at the Bromley side of Crystal Palace there's a host of other possibilities. And plenty of nice houses within your budget.

I'm trying not to get sucked up @daisypond which is why I appreciate the experiences of my older friends who have been there. It is hard though when parents around you are all planning on moving the kids in year 5 to be nearer 'good schools' or asking about tutors for the 11+ for a grammar school over an hour away or saving up for private schools etc. I feel like we are being negligent moving for the area /house rather than prioritising schools. But if all the parents of bright kids in my local area sent them to the nearest secondary it would soon become a better school and there would be a good mix of kids. Its an area with 1.2 million houses next to social housing estates (typical zone 2 London) and all the kids rub along at primary and then get separated based on parents aspirations. It seems sad. I understand and get caught up in it sometimes too.

*sucked in I mean!

But if all the parents of bright kids in my local area sent them to the nearest secondary it would soon become a better school and there would be a good mix of kids

People are not willing to sacrifice to their DC to possibly help change a school though. It's not just about academic attainment or aspiration - some of the schools near me have gang problems and other safety issues.

Some of the schools that my DC’s friends attended had gang problems, but still individual children did well in those schools. Eg, a friend moved her DD from an independent where she was bullied, to one “wouldn’t touch with a bargepole” school where she did very well. Many state schools in London, even good ones, have some sort of issue, but so so independents.

I'm not sure how much help my comment with be OP but I'm quite near Brockley, Nunhead etc. There seems to be a thing in Lewisham where basically you can't choose a bad primary - they're all OFSTED "Good" or better and actually good in practice, but secondaries are patchier. Having said that over the past year I've ended up in contact with teens from a few of the local secondary schools - including some with a poor reputation - and have been pleasantly surprised. It's really reinforced for me how much it's down to individual families and children.

@TheYearOfSmallThings I get that. I think some of the schools my friends kids go / went to have gang problems but they aren't or weren't personally affected by it. I guess to an extent most London state schools do. It's shit. I went to a school (not in London) which had excellent GCSE results and facilities (right now it's something like 85% leaving with A-C) but kids get threatened with knives outside the school gates and regularly have bikes stolen. I feel like society is becoming more violent and that is affecting all schools.

I've namechanged for this as it's a bit outing, but I agree with those who say most kids are totally fine in local secondary schools here.

I have kids in years 9 and 5. What seems to happen is that in years 4&5 people panic and talk about moving away. Lots of people get fixated on Kingsdale. Some people tutor for private schools.

No one ends up moving. One or two kids a year get Kingsdale. Some go private (lots don't get in, especially to the Dulwich schools, which comes as a big shock)

Kids end up at Sydenham and Forest Hill and parents are pleasantly surprised. I know tons of kids at both and all bar one really happy.

That's my experience from my particular corner of Forest Hill with housing stock at £850k (and great views)

I agree that you shouldn’t go by what’s on paper, but generally in my experience people either

• research the subject to within an inch of its life and buy a house very close to the school they identify as being excellent, i.e. Tooting Graveney. This will mean studying the admission criteria within an inch of its life and hoping to god that it doesn’t change! There are though some excellent really good state schools in London but house prices around them are punishing- but find the school first, then look for houses;
• live in one of the outer boroughs and then send the kids further out to schools which are in Kent, Buckinghamshire etc (often these are grammar schools which will probably require tutoring for a couple of years if you want to guarantee passing the 11 plus);
• find god and then go for a religious school (i.e. Wimbledon college) but you do need to find god before your kids are in yr6;
• remortgage the house and pay to go private; or
• move out!

Where do you live HarrietM87? I'm in Wanstead and will face this issue in a few years so always on the lookout for anywhere with good state secondary schools.

Op, Wanstead High apparently is getting better every year, I see more and more local children attending. Trinity is another popular school for kids from the local catholic primary. Forest and Bancrofts are private.

That's heartening @Foresthiller. We are north of the river but in an area that probably has a broadly similar demographic and similar conversations taking place around year 4/5!

And for what it's worth, if I was doing all this again I would move near a really good secondary. We could move when my son goes to secondary (three years to go) but I don't especially want to pay the stamp duty again and, more importantly, he really doesn't want to leave his friends at this point and that makes me worry about moving (I moved at 8 and never settled in my new location and he's an anxious boy).

I’m in Newham - lots of excellent state schools here.

Thanks HarrietM87.

@padsi1975 mine are similarly not keen on moving schools. Sensible friends moved before primary school when the kids were toddlers, planning ahead for secondaries (although a lot can change in that time) and settling down. We have stayed in our small flat and the kids don't want to change primary school so we can't go too far so we can bike in for school. We are close to a good, well regarded secondary school (Stoke Newington school) but need to move for space taking us out of catchment and where we can afford (probably south Tottenham) will put us in the catchment for the kind of schools parents panic about (Skinners Academy or Gladesmore).

They both seem perfectly fine to me and I know parents with kids there who are happy but who knows. Average or below average in terms of GCSE results but seem good for music, arts and links with business etc. Still not sure what to do for the best so this thread is helpful.

our concern would probably be that everyone else moves and we get left behind. but am assuming that's just my neuroses together with really not wanting to move out (and wont be able to as our jobs don't allow for that) but also a bit unsure as to where is best. it's great that london is big but sometimes it's just a little bit too big

Oh op yes! I waste many hours searching for somewhere within an easy commute, with good schools and more affordable property and I just go around and around and around and never get anywhere.

Yes, you’d better move or you will be left behind as everyone who is anyone leaves and only the proles are left behind. When you started talking about ‘family areas’ I lost sympathy I’m afraid.

Depending how far to the east you are willing to go Upminster has excellent secondary schools and great transport links. Your budget should get you a nice property there.

@dotdotdotdash - i think you misunderstood my comment. By being left behind I mean in terms of putting in the effort to build a community only for people to leave. we already live in an area where most of our friends are planning on moving in the next two-three years and it would be nice to move to somewhere a bit more settled rather than my kids having to make new friends over and over again. lovely in one way but a bit miserable in another

@goteam I know people with kids at Gladesmore and they are happy and on track to do well at GCSEs this year.

It's been judged as Outstanding for the last three Ofsteds as well.
But it's not quite managed to start pulling in the middle classes like Stoke Newington school did. It may start to happen now more people are buying Victorian houses in South Tottenham, having been priced out of Hackney or similar

I think there is a lot of snobbery about it - it's in Tottenham (!) And has a lot of non-white kids (!!) But as you recognise, it actually is completely fine school for lots of kids.

And kids can get mugged regardless of what school they go to.