No building regs, about to pull out

[IHeartNiles]

2 months in to our purchase and enquiries have finally come back to show no building regs on the large extensions that make up approx half the house. Extensions only a few years old, appearance is good but who knows. Apparently vendor in some sort of dispute with the building company. Offering indemnity but that’s not going to be of any use if the building needs work or god forbid replacing. Not even sure if our mortgage lender would agree to loan on it and solicitor would be obliged to tell them.

What a pain in the arse. Will now have to look for a rental as really want to complete on our sale.

Anyone have any experience, reassure me we’re doing the correct thing.so pissed off. Am trying to think how we could get an alert on this sort of thing in the future, I guess ask the sellers to see the paperwork upfront.

Our house had a conservatory on put on it , wooden one , it has pp but not building regs, was done about 18 years ago , the opening that was knocked through looked like it was chewed through by a rabid animal 😀 , it’s shit anyway and we are knocking it down .

@gottakeeponmovin

We built an extension once where we got planning but not building regs. We thought you didn't need building regs for a conservatory and you don't unless it's completely open to a kitchen which ours was. I was so worried when we came to sell but we got indemnity insurance and the house has sold about four times since so it wouldn't put me off now I understand it's very low risk - but I do get why you are worried

I wouldn’t have worried very much about a small one room extension. But this is a big two storey plus another single storey. They also made changes to the structure of the roof. That’s a big concern if not built correctly.

@NCHouseBuy

I pulled out for this exact reason last week. Aside from obvious structural safety concerns, there was the following:

1. Indemnity isn't worth much as it covers only legal fees, not the cost to put right - and is invalid if anyone alerts the council in any way. How else would they find out, random door to door checks? 🤔

1. Alarmingly, I found out that, whilst I may be able to get buildings insurance, and pay for it, it almost certainly wouldn't actually pay out if there was any issue caused or exacerbated by illegal building works. So, even if there was an earthquake and the house was damaged, I would be left with rubble and a mortgage.

1. If the house was structurally weakened by the work, I would have to put it right in order to safely and legally renovate and extend.

1. Finally, so many people walk away from houses with this sort of issue that I would be rescuing taking on the vendor's problem and paying them full whack for a house effectively worth zero. I felt for them, but I'm not a charity.

And, with that, I pulled out.

Good for you. It’s a nightmare out there.

@OUB1974

Great post *@NCHouseBuy*.

@IHeartNiles I posted earlier that we'd just sorted out a similar problem. In the last hour or two it's turned out that it isn't sorted out at all, so we are in a very similar position.

Our seller said at our first viewing all was in place and also said the regs had been signed off on the property information form. The searches came back negative though, so our solicitor has asked for proper evidence. They sent us a very vague certificate, and our solicitor asked them to tell her exactly what it was for and to provide evidence. They sent over a planning application, which to me looked fine, but I sent it to the solicitor and she explained that it's not related in any way and with the negative searches and lack of documentation it looks as though it hasnt been done properly. They have just tried to gloss over it and fob us off with unrelated documents.

So we have reduced our offer by the amount it may cost to put right. Just waiting to see if they will accept. In a way I'd prefer to walk away but we need a home. We will get the council to come and check it retrospectively and do any work required.

Sorry for hijacking slightly. It's a tough decision to make. The posts on here who have been through similar are really reassuring me that we've done the right thing. Everyone is pushing us to get insurance, but we're not interested. Good luck. X

Yes hold firm. You’re in the right, some people are just so untrustworthy. I feel like house buying reveals the worst types of people.

We’ve been so transparent, I made sure our buyers had every piece of documentation upfront. Every job in my current house has been done to a high standard and has certificates.

I'd pull out. We bought a house with incomplete building regs on the extension with a things to be rectified letter and rectified the things. Didn't deal with the loft conversion as it predated online records and was "fine" as a bonus room. We could see the steels boxed in and the neighbours told us all about the disruption their arrival had caused..

@Techway

Even if they fell out with the builder it is the owners responsibility to apply for building regs in the first place. From what you say they didn't complete the application?

If they had the application signed off, the builder would on the building control defined schedule and they would have needed to inform when they reached the stages. First is usually foundations. If this happened the council would have a record.

Without knowing that the foundations were built correctly you could have a wreck on your hands. Another stage is ensuring insulation is correct thickness and where needed, fire protection. It could be a freezing cold house or at worse a very unsafe house if fire retardant insulation not used.

This is why there are regs to prevent builders from shoddy builds that are a risk to householders.

My guess is the owners wanted to save time and money and not apply for regs. Foolish, foolish decision on a big extension and you are absolutely right to pull out.

I would worry that they saved money on the build and tarted it up with nice fixtures..hoping to trick buyers.

I dunno what they did or didn’t do but they have no written evidence or certification for anything, even gas safe and electrics. Could be a death trap, a pretty one mind.

I'm wondering why they are moving so soon after doing such a massive extension. Makes me suspicious.

You are doing the right thing.

You are doing the right thing in pulling out however much it’s disappointing.
It never fails to amaze me how many people go to the trouble and expense of building an extension and then failing to get Buildings Regulations signed off. Just why would you not do that? It’s a huge red flag and one that every solicitor in the land will bring up. Some mortgage companies won’t even sign off on it. It just flags up that it hasn’t been done properly because basically it hasn’t. If it had the BR would be in place.

I pulled out of a property once with a house belonging to a bloody builder who hadn’t even got planning permission and both him and the EA arguing that he didn’t need it for an extension and chimney breast removal. I knew he did need it and after having a sit down meeting with a person from the planning department who confirmed zilch on file and told me to walk away I did. The vendor still argued he didn’t need it. Nearly a year later after I had bought another house I saw this original house had sold for £50k less than what I had offered and retrospective planning and BR sign off had been agreed.

An indemnity is worthless as you know. The house could literally fall down and it doesn’t cover you for any of that. It’s just not worth the hassle and everyone else will experience the same problem as you. The vendor quite simply has to resolve this prior to any sale as without it the house is unsalable. The EA knows this too.

This is down to the vendor whatever the actual truth or story behind it is.

Agree that contacting he builders is the first step and may solve it - at least you will know if they are witholding the certificate.

But I'm surprised pp are saying you can't get retrospective regs - it's quite expensive and takes some time but I can't see why would it not be possible. Vendor should of course do this before you buy.

@AntiHop

I'm wondering why they are moving so soon after doing such a massive extension. Makes me suspicious.

Separating apparently, at a strange age to do so (70s). The house is very much to their tastes so doesn’t seem to be a flip, plus they’ve lived there a while. I’m convinced he’s about to go bankrupt and they’re divorcing to hide his money with setting her up in a house. I dunno but that’s what I suspect.

@friendlycat

You are doing the right thing in pulling out however much it’s disappointing. It never fails to amaze me how many people go to the trouble and expense of building an extension and then failing to get Buildings Regulations signed off. Just why would you not do that? It’s a huge red flag and one that every solicitor in the land will bring up. Some mortgage companies won’t even sign off on it. It just flags up that it hasn’t been done properly because basically it hasn’t. If it had the BR would be in place.

I pulled out of a property once with a house belonging to a bloody builder who hadn’t even got planning permission and both him and the EA arguing that he didn’t need it for an extension and chimney breast removal. I knew he did need it and after having a sit down meeting with a person from the planning department who confirmed zilch on file and told me to walk away I did. The vendor still argued he didn’t need it. Nearly a year later after I had bought another house I saw this original house had sold for £50k less than what I had offered and retrospective planning and BR sign off had been agreed.

An indemnity is worthless as you know. The house could literally fall down and it doesn’t cover you for any of that. It’s just not worth the hassle and everyone else will experience the same problem as you. The vendor quite simply has to resolve this prior to any sale as without it the house is unsalable. The EA knows this too.

This is down to the vendor whatever the actual truth or story behind it is.

Yes it’s his problem to resolve (or not). They went to trouble of planning and it looks well built, which makes me think the builders have the paperwork and he just hasn’t paid them. He does developments but this was their personal home. Suspect he might be in quite a lot of debt....

It's the owners responsibility to apply for BR plans approval, the builder then brings in Building control at the stages needed, according to the schedule set out my Building Control. The building control officer will record the stages so if they were completed by the council, not private building control, you could access these records. The builder can't withhold records as the paperwork doesn't go to them but to the person who applied for Building control, which is the owner of the property.

Anyone buying this house would need to determine if the foundations were dug properly so that will mess up any patio, plaster, decorating etc so it's expensive and loads of hassle.
Another key area is drainage, if this hasn't been done correctly then you could have horrendous problems that only surface after a period of time.

Ime, building regs is only ever ignored if it's a cheap or poor build, otherwise why not just get the stages signed off? If the build has been professional, building control are onsite for a short time and it's straightforward.
These tend to be the stages, in case anyone else is going through similar.

Excavation, (before excavations are filled).
Foundations (before they are covered up).
Laying of damp proof courses.
Installation of new drains (before covering up).
Construction of the primary structure.
Installation of insulation.
Roof construction.

@Techway

It's the owners responsibility to apply for BR plans approval, the builder then brings in Building control at the stages needed, according to the schedule set out my Building Control. The building control officer will record the stages so if they were completed by the council, not private building control, you could access these records. The builder can't withhold records as the paperwork doesn't go to them but to the person who applied for Building control, which is the owner of the property.

Anyone buying this house would need to determine if the foundations were dug properly so that will mess up any patio, plaster, decorating etc so it's expensive and loads of hassle.
Another key area is drainage, if this hasn't been done correctly then you could have horrendous problems that only surface after a period of time.

Ime, building regs is only ever ignored if it's a cheap or poor build, otherwise why not just get the stages signed off? If the build has been professional, building control are onsite for a short time and it's straightforward.
These tend to be the stages, in case anyone else is going through similar.

Excavation, (before excavations are filled).
Foundations (before they are covered up).
Laying of damp proof courses.
Installation of new drains (before covering up).
Construction of the primary structure.
Installation of insulation.
Roof construction.

Thanks this is helpful. There is an application on the local council website but I can’t view any further than that. Any idea where further to look? I don’t know if private building control then took over or what did or didn’t happen during the build. Unless the vendor or builder are forthcoming this is where we walk away.

They don't list Building reg applications online but if you phoned building control they might assist you, does depend on the person at the other end of the phone though! They could quote GDPR but given it's not personal data that shouldn't be a reason as it's linked to the property. I did an enquiry for a property (and wasn't at that stage the owner) as it's valid to ask for confirmation that a property has all the proper paperwork..given how easy it would be to mock up fake copies.

If they didn't have final sign off due to awaiting electrical or gas sign off I would be slightly less concerned as they ultimately could get a certified gas engineer to sign off as safe, submit it and get final sign off. Electrical is slightly trickier as generally electricians don't like signing off others work as they can't vouch for the cabling that has been chased into walls. All they can see is the consumer unit and external sockets.

Some householders are clueless about or deliberately evade regs, due to time and cost (it tends to have a sliding scale by size of extension) but it's there to ensure we all live in safe homes.

Another example could be windows on top floor openings, there are specifications so that in the event of a fire people could exit a building. If no regulations existed we would have very many unsafe homes. I bet the EA wouldn't move his family into a house that hadn't been signed off!!

@Techway

They don't list Building reg applications online but if you phoned building control they might assist you, does depend on the person at the other end of the phone though! They could quote GDPR but given it's not personal data that shouldn't be a reason as it's linked to the property. I did an enquiry for a property (and wasn't at that stage the owner) as it's valid to ask for confirmation that a property has all the proper paperwork..given how easy it would be to mock up fake copies.

If they didn't have final sign off due to awaiting electrical or gas sign off I would be slightly less concerned as they ultimately could get a certified gas engineer to sign off as safe, submit it and get final sign off. Electrical is slightly trickier as generally electricians don't like signing off others work as they can't vouch for the cabling that has been chased into walls. All they can see is the consumer unit and external sockets.

Some householders are clueless about or deliberately evade regs, due to time and cost (it tends to have a sliding scale by size of extension) but it's there to ensure we all live in safe homes.

Another example could be windows on top floor openings, there are specifications so that in the event of a fire people could exit a building. If no regulations existed we would have very many unsafe homes. I bet the EA wouldn't move his family into a house that hadn't been signed off!!

No, I’m sure the EA wouldn’t. They just want to get their money on the 2 properties.

I’m not going to be chasing round after certs, either he gets hold of it or we walk away, simple as that. Part of me feels like telling them to get stuffed now, after all the foot dragging and trying to stall that has led us almost 11 weeks into the process. But if he comes up with the goods I won’t bite off my nose to spite my face. I’m pretty resigned to the likelihood that it won’t be resolved.

DO NOT buy with indemnity. They are not worth the paper they are written on.
My extension was not signed off because my ex husband who was not working at the time said he's sort it while I was at work. Guess what - it was never sorted. He lied.
Me and my buyer decided that as they really wanted the house we'd get it signed off - it took a month and building regs signed it off for us. The sale went through just a bit delayed. It depends on how busy your local council is.

We had a large side extension in our last property. Essentially we got our planning permission and our architect recommended a private building regs company. We then applied for that at the beginning. The builders then took over and contacted them at key points of the build. We then got it signed off at the end. It was straightforward.

If they can't supply the paperwork, don't risk it. It's a simple process.

P.S We had to put in a Juliet balcony at the top of the stairs to the garden as they were not allowed to be in that particular place they had to be moved eventually and the old woodburner had to be removed then they agreed to sign it off. It cost me around £500.

We had major building work done last year, after it was complete the private BR inspectors (appointed by the builder) dragged their feet with the certificate. I retained the final amount payable to the builder to give him an incentive to produce the docs the BR company said they needed. Without BR sign off, the house would be worth much less/difficult to sell one day.

I would pull out if I was you, the work is too recent.

@madcatladyforever

P.S We had to put in a Juliet balcony at the top of the stairs to the garden as they were not allowed to be in that particular place they had to be moved eventually and the old woodburner had to be removed then they agreed to sign it off. It cost me around £500.

Thanks sounded a pain. I don’t want to pay anything to rectify it, it’s his problem to resolve. Or not. It’s such big works I suspect it would cost a lot to inspect if that process wasn’t done at the beginning.

@SlipperyLizard

We had major building work done last year, after it was complete the private BR inspectors (appointed by the builder) dragged their feet with the certificate. I retained the final amount payable to the builder to give him an incentive to produce the docs the BR company said they needed. Without BR sign off, the house would be worth much less/difficult to sell one day.

I would pull out if I was you, the work is too recent.

Yes I agree with you. I felt quite numb about it yesterday, feel quite cross now that they led us up the garden path for so many weeks.

Sadly I think you are right. It’s their property, their responsibility. They had the plans drawn up, paid a builder and undertook an extension which was not a small conservatory on the back. Part of that process requires BR sign off at the different stages to ensure the build is satisfactory and safe.

You say the vendor is a property developer so he’s well aware of the drill.
As is an EA worth their salt. It just hasn’t been done properly as there is no legal paperwork that clarifies this. It doesn’t make a jot of difference whether he hadn’t paid the builder, is going bankrupt himself etc. It’s all part of the process that should have been done to make it all legal.

Without BR sign off for an extension this size it would be madness for you or anyone to proceed as it could potentially cost a fortune to have it corrected if there are problems. You simply don’t know whether it’s been done correctly or not. It might be fine or it might not.

But you’ve already been led up the garden path for 11 weeks and if you don’t proceed this will simply come up again with the next person. It doesn’t make sense as to why the vendor isn’t pulling out all the stops to have this resolved. It isn’t going to go away, it may do for you but not for him.

The red flags are truly flying high. But at the end of the day you can’t proceed with a major property purchase when you have no evidence, that is required by law, that the significant extension that has been undertaken on the property basically passes the structural safety checks that BR stipulate. If the person who initiated all of this work, and paid for it albeit even if he didn’t pay final bills etc, can’t provide what is necessary for you to purchase his property then ultimately you can’t proceed with the purchase.

Gutting as though this is, perhaps you are dodging a bullet so to speak.

@friendlycat

Sadly I think you are right. It’s their property, their responsibility. They had the plans drawn up, paid a builder and undertook an extension which was not a small conservatory on the back. Part of that process requires BR sign off at the different stages to ensure the build is satisfactory and safe.

You say the vendor is a property developer so he’s well aware of the drill.
As is an EA worth their salt. It just hasn’t been done properly as there is no legal paperwork that clarifies this. It doesn’t make a jot of difference whether he hadn’t paid the builder, is going bankrupt himself etc. It’s all part of the process that should have been done to make it all legal.

Without BR sign off for an extension this size it would be madness for you or anyone to proceed as it could potentially cost a fortune to have it corrected if there are problems. You simply don’t know whether it’s been done correctly or not. It might be fine or it might not.

But you’ve already been led up the garden path for 11 weeks and if you don’t proceed this will simply come up again with the next person. It doesn’t make sense as to why the vendor isn’t pulling out all the stops to have this resolved. It isn’t going to go away, it may do for you but not for him.

The red flags are truly flying high. But at the end of the day you can’t proceed with a major property purchase when you have no evidence, that is required by law, that the significant extension that has been undertaken on the property basically passes the structural safety checks that BR stipulate. If the person who initiated all of this work, and paid for it albeit even if he didn’t pay final bills etc, can’t provide what is necessary for you to purchase his property then ultimately you can’t proceed with the purchase.

Gutting as though this is, perhaps you are dodging a bullet so to speak.

Thank you, this is helpful and helping me stand firm when the whole thing is bloody upsetting and no other properties we’ve viewed have come close to being as suitable. I’ve even kept an eye on Rightmove before and during this whole process and nothing else has been anywhere near. But we’re not fools and there is no bloody way we’ll proceed without building regs in place. Which I’m pretty sure is going to be unresolvable on this build.

Anyone have any views as to how his dispute with the builder has stopped him getting building regs?

My thought were that the builder had held onto them or not completed them due to the dispute. But I understand they actually come to the owner not the builder??

The other possibility is that the building company / owner cut corners on the build and didn’t bother following process.

We might never know but would be good to find out.