Bringing family up in an inner city flat...

[goteam]

Our narrative at home has always been that we need to move out of our flat to a house once the kids are a few years from secondary school for more space. That time is kind of now. We are in zone 2 near lovely parks, swimming pools, theatres, quick bus into central London and lots of other amenities. We just can't decide on an area of north London we like enough and can afford (900k max) and just love our current location so much.

Anyone have positive stories about bringing older kids up in flats? The kids were sharing a bedroom but we have rearranged so our small reception room is now bedroom 3 and the kitchen diner which is quite big has become our living room too. We don't feel cramped though and have clever storage and beginning to think is it worth the upheaval of moving schools etc for an extra bedroom and a bit more living space?! We want an extra bedroom mainly so friends and family can stay but that's all we need it for really. We would downsize again if we did move once the kids leave home.

We have a garden and over lockdown we spent a lot of time in there putting new decking down and in the summer it really is like having an extra room.

I think we are beginning to doubt whether we actually want to move! I know many people live in high rises etc and apartment living is just how it is for many but I guess the thing is we have a choice here. We could move to zone 4 or 5 and get a nice house but be in the suburbs really without the which we aren't sure we want! In an ideal world we would be able to afford a house here but they are 1.2 million for 3 bedroom terraces which don't actually provide much more space....1.3 million for 4 bedrooms...

We felt a bit cramped and on top of each other over lockdown but now things are a bit more normal we are often out and about and home is more of a base which is what has always kept us here.

Any thoughts and positive stories welcome!

how about a purpose built flats? like a mansion flat? those will have better layouts and if it's on a ground floor then your shared garden is still effectively yours. For teens I would say maybe that's better than even having your own garden.Or seeing you end up lacking that third bedroom and swap it for a garden as and when. Teens dont need a 'garden' i.e.a tiny patch in london that we call a garden in the same way.

Our current dilemma is that even the areas I mentioned above are too suburban for me....so am even more of a city person than you. I just love the vibe and knowing the world is here rather than out there. So we decided that as much as I would love the 'little darlings' to have the option of fab schools - I cant do it.

If it helps, why not write a list of all the reasons why you need extra space. Then next to each item, write whether that issue can be overcome if you stay put - or if it can only be solved moving.

Once you've done this, transfer the items that can only be solved by moving, onto a new list. Then start a separate column and list in it everything that you would lose if you moved from your current flat.

Sometimes seeing things in black and white can help you focus on a decision. In this case, you can look at the list and weigh up whether the things that can only be solved be moving, are worth whatever you'd lose.

@Tappering we actually have a spreadsheet with each area listed and a column for things like school, transport, amenities (theatre, galleries, swimming pools, other activities), parks, house prices etc.!! We have been talking about this for about 3 years and no closer to a solution. We have included a few areas outside London in Hertfordshire for comparison thinking if we move to say, Enfield why not go the whole hog and get a massive house.

@zurich09 a mansion flat is an idea. We do like our current flat dwelling neighbours though. In a large converted house with two other flats. I have friends nearby in flats with kids who have been really unlucky with neighbours and with communal living it's so important. I guess that's it. It's the unknown. The flat above us do have 2 teenagers but it is quite a bit bigger than ours, on two levels. 3 full sized bedrooms. They are always out and about enjoying the local area so I see how it can work.

I think that's the quandary. If we are moving nearby for an extra 5 square metres or whatever should we just stay put?! Considering stamp duty, moving costs etc. Its almost like if we move we should do it properly and get a lot more space. Or not move at all.

exactly...we've spent the summer looking at two completely different areas - flats in one and three bed session the other, but I just cant do it.plus the schools arent great in the areas where we can get a house. for me it's heart over head but I guess that's ok. We also thought about moving completely out and living almost mortgage free....

For us at the end of the day unless z1+2 return to how they were in the 90s - I just cant do it.

three bed semis

Where were you looking at the 3 bed semis @zurich09 ?

It's a tough one, the main issue for me is what will things look like when the dc are teens. I grew up in Z2 in a big house but myself & my friends actually spent more time staying over in other friends house because of the location as opposed to the size. However the friends I know who grew up in these flats all have 5 bedroom houses further out. I do worry what the future will look like in terms of what teens can do because stuff is changing & by default will they need to spend more time at home.

I completely understand about wanting to be in the thick of it. Some friends actually moved to Bristol because they got the big house & the walk to the buzz & amenities.

My parents still have their big house which is actually very handy because everyone treats it as a hub as my siblings & I don't have lots of space.

It sounds like your spreadsheet is quite detailed, which whilst useful can be a double-edged sword when trying to make a tricky decision.

I'd suggest you hide all of the lines/columns that are not related to space - because this is the theme running through your posts and is clearly the driver for this issue.

Once you've done that, re-look at each of these lines to do with space and really think hard about whether they are solvable with some creative thinking - or whether the only solution is to move.

E.g. you've mentioned bike storage being s potential issue as the kids get older. Will they actually want or need bikes all of the time, or could you hire some for the occasions when they want to cycle? If they will want permanent bikes, then could you do vertical storage in your garden? Anchor some hoops into the wall and mount the bikes one on top of the other (we've got this arrangement in our garage). Bike lock through each hoop to secure, then a waterproof cover over everything.

It sounds to me as if you are (sensibly) trying to ask "do we need to move" rather than "should we move because that's what people do when they have families". But sometimes having lots of info can distract from the core issue - which in your case is "do we need more space?".

SELondon/North London areas you mentioned etc....but in areas where we can afford a big place the schools are rubbish ( which I sort of do care about). For us - a big house plus good schools means suburbia and I cant do it. So we are compromising on space, schools and areas by going from z1 to z2 and even then am a bit scared

For us at the end of the day unless z1+2 return to how they were in the 90s

My parents are worried about this too & thinking of selling. I'm zone 2/3 borders & have a terrace which isn't much bigger than my old big flat. I'm not sure whether I should go further out before I'm priced out of there.

I think z3 will be fine -it was fine even in the 90s..but I still remember z1+2 being scary and v run down. Middle class flight might well return them back to that era. I wonder how many families living in flats in these areas will choose to move out with WFH but new ones might not move in for the same reasons. Urban spaces can and do change pretty quickly.

@Tappering yes there is the persistent voice saying "this is what people do when they have kids" re moving for more space. The bike storage is solvable I think. We do cycle a lot but DH and I have foldable bikes. I think we could make it work but would have to be ruthless with getting rid of things.

@ghostee that's how I feel re teenagers. We were the same growing up. We always stayed with the friend whose parents had a house walking distance from the city centre. Nobody ever went to the suburban homes even when the houses were bigger. My family home was suburban (well council estate in the middle of nowhere) and small so worst of both worlds!

I think a lot of non-London non-flat dwellers are commenting negatively as they are projecting their ideas of space and what is 'normal'. My best friend gave up a 4 bed detached house to live in a 2 bed flat in Zone 2 with 2dc. All of our friends thought she was absolutelynmad, verging on cruel making their dds (10 & 8) share a room. She loved it though and 10 years on so do the kids too. Living so centrally gives her dds a head start in terms of accepting unpaid internships. They didn't suffer either with lack of space, all of their friends were in the same boat and met up in lovely parks, coffee shops etc.

OP Is stay put; you don't want to move and you shouldn't feel you have to either. Your dc have a good sized bedroom for being friends back to, so I'm London terms they are very lucky!

Yes some places near my parents were absolute no go areas particularly at night. I was a 90s tween/teen.

I agree that Zone3 will likely be fine but one reason the property costs so much even though it's relatively small, small garden & no off street parking is the proximity to the tube & central London.

If the pull of that is gone particularly with the increased wfh why would you pay so much. I don't know anyone who had gone back to their z1 office & DHs big firm have told them it will never again be 5 days in the office.

I think I'm nervy because at least 5 properties are up for sale on my road. Despite the press they are now starting to get reduced & actually anyone who bought in the last 5 yrs is unlikely to make a profit once you factor in stamp duty/work. Admittedly the prices are already quite high. I wonder what that looks like in another couple of yrs since so much of the housing market movement is driven by equity but I don't think the equity gains are there now like in the past. I have quite a few friends stuck on the ladder.

As 14/15/16 yr olds we spent lots of time shopping, going to the cinema, pizza hut, youth clubs & the pub. Will these things be there for my teens in 10 yrs time? We also just spent a lot of time hanging out at the park, shopping centre (I also used to play out with neighbours when young), I don't really see teenagers any more & I do wonder if by default they spend more time in the home.

@zatarontoast I do think about future opportunities for the kids with the jobs market likely to be how it is. I could never do unpaid internships so had a much longer and tougher route to what I do now. Also, with so many good universities in London there will be the option of them saving money by living at home which admittedly might be tough in a flat but no worse than a tiny halls of residence room.

@zurich09 I do actually work from home and that's one reason I do like living centrally. I can work for a couple of hours in a cafe for a change of scenery and we get to go to the park after school while it is still light or go swimming. We love being at home but would hate to feel restricted by not having options for things to do around.

@goteam

Thanks *@HappydaysArehere* DH is like me. He errs between thinking we need more space and then having a lovely day at a local park and cafe with a short trip to a museum / zoo etc and thinking how lucky we are and need to make the flat work long term. No trip involves loads of planning or travel.

@TracyBeakerSoYeah areas we have thought about moving to include southgate, winchmore hill, palmers green, finchley and harrow but while they are nice areas (with great secondary schools) they all feel very suburban. It feels like going into central London will suddenly become a big undertaking and certainly can't be done by bus. There is something about sitting on the top deck of a bus passing lots of London landmarks we just love.

@Stinginthetail are you in Walthamstow? I like it there and that might be one place to consider if we do move. Seems to have it's own stuff happening - galleries, cinema, nice parks etc.

Regarding secondaries @softshack they are ok, nothing special but I think they turn out well rounded young people. Friends kids studied locally and went on to Oxbridge and other Russell group unis. The super state secondaries are in Barnet but we did a visit to the area near one (Wren) and honestly felt a bit depressed by the area. Not for us at all. Just rows of houses as a PP mentioned, with few shops etc. I grew up somewhere like that and didnt like it.

I'm not in Walthamstow but not far- I'm in Leytonstone on the central line. Under normal circumstances I take my daughter to the theatre mid week evenings on a whim and we're home by 11pm. She's still at primary school. Glad we don’t live further out but it doesn't feel suburban to me here. We cycle to the Olympic Park which is lovely and have the swimming pool/velopark facilities there.

@Stinginthetail -how are the schools where you are? I think girls might actually have more options in Walthamstow and Leytonstone but that's one reason why we were a bit hesitant looking there.

@goteam interesting about WFH. I always thought most people live in Z2 because of the quick commute...but I actually dont know anybody with kids living there. In z2 it's mainly Europeans and they are not moving further out as much as leaving the UK.

in z1

@Stinginthetail Leytonstone is nice. I like how it is easy to get to Stratford which actually has developed it's own city buzz, especially with the shopping mall etc. Lots of organisations have head offices there nowadays. But yeah also close to Epping forest and the Olympic park so thumbs up from me for Leytonstone!! It's just the starting over we would have to do that makes it difficult to make a decision. It would have been sensible to move further out while the kids were babies and put down roots but we didn't think to do that!

I think we could make it work but would have to be ruthless with getting rid of things.

At the risk of a silly observation, make sure you are making the best use of every inch of possible storage that could you have.

We used to live in a tiny studio flat - use space under sofas, coffee tables that open so that you can store things in them, built in shelves, making use of vertical storage etc. There are some really clever small space storage ideas now.

Leytonstone is a really friendly community too with a lot of nice pubs/cafes and a community feel. I used to live in North London (crouch end) and moved here 22 yrs ago to move in with my boyfriend. Always thought we'd move back to crouch end once I'd paid off my student loan (his rent was v cheap!) but I grew to love it here and ended up staying, marrying him, kids etc. Feel v lucky to have found this great area. Lots of my friends who aren't London born and bred feel the same about this area. A bit of a hidden gem. It's never too late to move but better to do it before secondary for sure.

Thanks @Tappering I think we do. We have high ceilings and a lot of shelving units, under bed storage etc

I grew up in a flat in Zone 2. We didn’t even have a garden but my sibling and I had a bedroom each and it was fine for us, never felt we didn’t have enough space. However, looking back, I think the teenage years must have been hard on my mum. We pretty much took over communal areas of the flat and there was very little privacy for her.

DH and I moved out of zone 2 to a house with garden in a zone 4 area of north london years ago, when our kids were small. I agonised about leaving inner London, but we are near a tube that’s 20 mins to Kings Cross and it really hasn’t impacted on our ability to get the full benefits of London living at all. It’s still London! . If anything, it’s the best of both worlds, as it’s a bit leafier, better schools, less crime and antisocial behaviour, but still very commutable for central London and diverse with good amenities.

Having a house is massively coming in to its own now our kids are teens, too. You just can’t imagine how much they change and how much you all need your space!