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Did I get fleeced by my builder on bathroom remodel?

83 replies

Smallgoon · 24/04/2020 21:15

Wanted your opinions on whether you believe I'm been done on my bathroom remodel. The work was essentially the old bathroom suite being ripped out and replaced with a walk-shower, counter top sink and repositioned toilet. I also had the room retiled, painted and had the same builder make me a vanity unit and a tall storage unit. My bathroom is fairly small, roughly 5smq floor space, and there were no structural changes needed.
The builder initially quoted £12k for which I told him my budget was in the £10k range and I didn't want to exceed this. He agreed to this and we agreed that I would take charge of sourcing materials but that he could purchase items such as grout/plywood etc since this was easy for him to get hold of. Mistake number one for me was that we never had a contract in place as such, and that I paid him weekly which I shouldn’t have done. I should have paid an amount upfront and then the rest on completion. Anyhoo, long story short, the bathroom ended up taking almost 4 weeks and it still remains incomplete (shaver socket missing, spot lights need replacing, no handles on storage unit etc). Initially, and for ease, I wanted to use the same builder (depending on progress) to also fit my kitchen, flooring and redecorating. I was happy to use the same builder until I noticed that he got somewhat comfortable and work had really slowed. Now given he was being paid weekly, which amounted to a day rate, obviously the longer he took the more I’d have to pay. I also grew concerned by the fact that I had gone over budget and when I started raising these concerns with him, telling him that I needed to reel the spending in, he’d almost become annoyed and make it sound as though I was being irrational and that I should up my budget because ‘you only get to do this once’. The issue was, there wasn’t a magic money tree that I could rely on if I went significantly over budget so I didn’t think I was being unreasonable. The next thing I knew, he’d moved onto other projects within the flat (such as decorating and pulling the kitchen apart) even though the bathroom was incomplete. When I’d try to sit down with him (realising I didn’t want to make the same mistake as before, and this time set a fixed price that we stayed within rather than this turning into a day rate) he seemed reluctant to have this conversation. Every time I asked him to give me a quote for the remaining works, he’d tell me he would, and then never would. Things started to sour when I told him that we MUST agree a fixed amount, and that I would pay him 25% in advance and the rest would follow upon completion. The whole mood changed, he seemed to really take this to heart and felt attacked, telling me that it felt as though I didn’t ‘trust’ him. The final straw for me came when I arrived to my flat, and found that one of the windows had been damaged. He told me that whilst trying to close it, it had gotten jammed and he then insisted that I should look into getting this fixed because my windows were clearly ‘flimsy’. On the same day, upon discussing carpet options for my bedroom (a space which covers 12sqm) he suggested a carpet costing almost £700, knowing full well I was keeping a tighter handle on budget. He also knew that I’d spent £1300 on engineered flooring for a space measuring 30sqm - therefore why would I spend half that amount on carpet for a single room! I realised at this stage that I just couldn’t trust him to ‘stick to the brief’ and that I was better off finding somebody else to finish the rest of the flat. Obviously, he wasn’t happy with this and then suggested he take his belongings and leave. I told him that was fine but that he’d need to fix the window he’d broken and complete my bathroom in full (the vanity was still missing drawers!).
Unfortunately, the drawers he fitted, ironically, are flimsy, not sure if this was deliberate or not, but as mentioned, the bathroom is still not 100% complete. All in all, he was paid £7600 in labour fees (he had help from two others, they looked like apprentices) and then £2210 for materials/expenses. On top of this, I spent £2500 on items such as the shower, toilet, sink, towel rack, tiles, paint etc. So, all in all we’re looking at £12,219 for a bathroom that is still incomplete. He also didn’t provide any invoices, receipts etc, and is still demanding I pay him for painting my bedroom and ripping out the bathroom, which I find a bloody cheek given the bathroom is still incomplete. I should state that this is for a 1 bed flat in SE London. I know that builder costs in London are extortionate, just wanted an idea if people think what I paid was fairly standard or whether I’ve paid over the odds.

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Campurp · 24/04/2020 21:29

Yes, you’ve been fleeced. You already know the mistakes you’ve made and I hope you won’t put yourself In that position again. There’s no way you should have spent that much money and still have nothing to show for it! Sorry and good luck

Smallgoon · 24/04/2020 21:33

@campurp Thanks, as I'd suspected. I should state that I'm not unhappy with my bathroom. I designed it myself and it's turned out pretty much as I'd hoped. I just feel I paid over the odds and obviously it's still missing a few things. My reason for starting this thread is to ascertain whether I can successfully argue against paying him any more cash, since he's still demanding payment (lol!)

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Campurp · 24/04/2020 22:10

Ask him for evidence of what he’s spent. I really doubt that he’ll provide receipts/invoices so he won’t have a leg to stand on.

dalrympy · 24/04/2020 22:36

It's hard to say as these jobs always seem to involve differing levels of labour.

I paid a lot less for my new bathroom but I'm not that happy with the finish. Are you at least happy with it?

LolaSkoda · 24/04/2020 22:50

I’m in the midlands and this seems extortionate?!

Gosh. I hope you’re ok. It sounds like he took advantage of the lack of contract etc. I really feel for you, I’m so sorry.

Smallgoon · 24/04/2020 23:10

@dalrympy Hi, as I've said, i designed the bathroom and I'm happy with how it's turned out compared to its previous state. Upon closer inspection, some of the tile cutting leaves a lot to be desired, obviously I'm not happy that the drawers of my vanity unit do not feel very secure, the tile trim doesn't look as good as it could and the fact that bathroom is not 100% complete. I'm happy overall, however, for what I'd paid, I'd expect it to have been completed entirely, and at a better standard of finish. Another example is that he left without properly 'cleaning' the bathroom, so I'm left with silicone stains on the tiles, paint splashes on my toilet/tiled floor etc.

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Smallgoon · 24/04/2020 23:23

@LolaSkoda I'm ok, just pissed off that I was naive, and that I allowed him to manipulate me. I selected him off of MyBuilder and he had 100% positive feedback with lots of experience. When we met I fell for the spiel - he was super friendly, and likes to give off this 'let's be mates' vibe which I guess is a tactic that works. He told me my project was very straight forward, and that they'd deffo have it done in 2 weeks, stating that they worked weekends too (they never did), and that he never took on more than one project at a time (as I'd have expected). However, they'd turn up after 9am (which was annoying as a few occasions they missed deliveries) and would then leave before 4pm to beat the traffic. I then noticed that when I arrived to the flat (I haven't moved in yet) he'd often not be there, and claim to be out purchasing materials, whilst the apprentices were on site. In the second week he was absent for two days, and his son (apprentice) let slip that he was working on another project. I should have confronted him there and then but didn't want to rock the boat, and overall was happy with the progress. It was towards the end of the second week that I became concerned, and then the third week just seemed to drag. It was at this point that I raised concerns about how long it was taking, and that was probably the hardest I'd seen him work. He was onsite all week and tried to blame the extra week of work on the plumbing for the repositioned toilet (which I didn't believe). I guess I have to bare some responsibility. He was clearly keen to continue working on my flat judging by the fact they quickly ripped out the flooring and the kitchen, however, I'm glad I made the decision to part ways. This all happened a few days before the lock down, so I guess even if I'd stuck with them, work would have halted.

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caringcarer · 24/04/2020 23:44

I really hate to say this but when I want a quote for any jobs on house or car I get DH to deal with builders and mechanics because many seem to quote more if a female asks for quote as they seem to think females will not know any better. I know not all tradesmen do this but many do especially with cars. Always have a second person with you when you ask for quote and make them put it in writing. Agree up front on price for job and time frame. Indist on a contract. If it is a big job I would try to get a penalty clause for not completing work on time. You should not have agreed to let this person start kitchen or anything else until bathroom completed to your satisfaction. You should ALWAYS get 2 or 3 quotes in writing before choosing who will do job. You have learned an expensive lesson op. Tradesmen vary a lot in cost. I had my loft converted 6 years ago and quotes for same work varied from £35k - £60k. We chose company who did it for £41k as they could not start for 3 months and willing for us to speak to several owners of previous jobs they had done and many jobs on their website before and after photos. They also have us contract guaranteeing their work, and roof for 10 years.

MarieG10 · 25/04/2020 07:32

You have identified all the issues really but yes sounds like you have been utterly fleeced. We have had a lot of work done in our house as well as properties we own and always

Have a clear written specification stating what we want, exact materials for example make and model of bathroom, shower etc...

Draft contract that states anticipated completion time and payment schedule. Note that we never pay anything up front and for example,Ed with a bathroom, the only interim payment I might make is materials for stuff that is clearly identifiable.

If there is anything of a surprise discovered that is outside the contract, there is a requirement in the contract that any changes or other variations will be agreed by me via email to him

Unfortunately there are lots of people experience what you do. Most recommendation sites like you mention have fake reviews on. Where we live, if a tradesman needs to advertise you wonder why as most is done by word of mouth from happy clients.

tinkywinkyshandbag · 25/04/2020 07:49

Yes sounds like you've been fleeced, we also had a similar experience but on an extension costing many more times than that and it got nasty. In the end we paid another person to finish it off. Like you've trusted him and he is a neighbour too which makes it even worse. In the end we had to chalk it up to experience and our naivety but I would never do it again. As other have said ask for receipts and a breakdown of the additional costs and only pay it if the bathroom is finished to your satisfaction.

tinkywinkyshandbag · 25/04/2020 07:50

That should read "like you we trusted him"

Pipandmum · 25/04/2020 08:12

Always get quotes in writing with everything itemized and never agree to a day rate. There may indeed be extra expenses, but it should be discussed beforehand. I always buy everything other than building materials unless the tradesman and I agree on something they can get a discount on. I don't need every last receipt but I get detailed stage payments invoices so there is no question of what I have or have not paid for. It does sometimes feel like the last ten per cent of a job takes the same amount of time as the first 90%, but they don't get final payments till work is complete and satisfactory.
And those online check a trade things are useless.

whataboutbob · 25/04/2020 13:36

@caringcarer I agree, I strongly suspect they take liberties with female customers they’d think twice about trying on with a male. I’ve been stung that way and am a lot more weary now. I always start off by bargaining and trying to get the price down. My old attitude used to be it’s embarrassing to talk about money, be reasonable and they will be. Experience taught me otherwise.

dalrympy · 25/04/2020 14:45

Hmmm see that's how I feel about mine. Tile cutting not amazing, not cleaned up completely. Few marks on things.

But i paid about £4k for mine and that includes me buying all the fittings, suite etc for over £2k.

I'm not London but I'm in a nearby expensive south coast city.

Smallgoon · 25/04/2020 18:52

Yes, as I said, I have to bare some responsibility for not having a contract. I let my naivety allow me to believe he was trustworthy and wouldn't screw me over. And I agree with the other points about females being an easy target - with hindsight, he definitely sought to capitalise on my lack of experience. I'm a FTB, so any type of reno work is new grounds for me. I should also clarify that he is now demanding payment for painting my bedroom, ripping out the flooring and ripping out the kitchen (i stated bedroom in OP). He also took the integrated fridge, freezer, dishwasher and washing machine, despite me telling him AO would collect those when they delivered my new appliances - he insisted he'd take them off my hands instead, I suspect to sell on. Just pointing out that I believe this was the reason he was keen to get stuck into the kitchen. He also asked if he could take the old flooring, so clearly, he doesn't pass up on opportunity to capitalise. Obviously, he can go whistle for any extra money, seeing as I feel I paid an additional £2k in labour fees because they allowed the work to drag into a third week. He was also supposed to return the fob to my property, which he now appears to have lost, so that's another £40 down the drain for me. I told him I would follow up in writing, detailing in email that I'm unhappy with what I've paid, given the work is incomplete, and not to the standard I'd expect. I imagine MyBuilder won't be much help if I report him to them, and I doubt he'll want to come to a reasonable resolution. He has offered to return and fix my drawers, but frankly I just don't trust him in my property, and the drawers aren't the only issue. The only suitable resolution for me will be that he return some of my money which I doubt he'll do, as according to him, what I paid was market rate for London. I should also point out that he clearly marking up the price on items drastically. I know it's fairly standard for builders to charge a mark up, partiularly if they get a trade price, but I caught him out when he told me my new vertical radiators would cost £200 each. He went ahead and placed the order without consulting me (he knew I was in charge of ordering materials) but we had an issue with them not being delivered on time. When I sought to investigate what had gone wrong, it turned out that he'd purchased them from a supplier on ebay, for £80 each. I have no doubt that he would have passed them off as being £200 each, if it weren't for me stepping in. I just feel massively duped, and it doesn't help the general negative feeling that people tend to have towards builders.

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Smallgoon · 25/04/2020 19:04

Can I ask what your thoughts are (based on the works I've described) on what the labour costs should have been, bearing in mind, I am based in London (Forest Hill to be precise)?
He wanted an additional £7k in labour alone to redecorate my flat (including replacing spotlights etc), to fit my kitchen (howdens, pre-built) which would have included moving plumbing and electrics, and finally to fit my wooden flooring (hallway and livingroom/kitchen). He said this would take roughly 3 weeks. I knew at this point that I wasn't going to move forward. I have a small 50sqm flat. The flooring would have taken a day at most imo, the kitchen I suspect 5 days (it's a small L-shaped situation, nothing too complicated), and a few days at most to redecorate, so I couldn't understand the 3 week estimate.

I should point out that I've since had the plumbing moved in my kitchen and my boiler moved (a larger part of the work which I was always going to ask somebody else to do since my builder wasn't gas certified), and this was completed in a single day by a family friend.

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earsup · 25/04/2020 23:54

My bathroom with similar work cost about 3 k Inc the shower and basin..lots of tiling..walls were a wonky mess, all had to be levelled etc..Peter who did mine took about 10 days full time as things needed to dry out before progressing etc. My builder has fake reviews as do most of those sites...never use them. Try to get money back.

Smallgoon · 26/04/2020 00:18

@earsup Thanks. Can I clarify, are you London based and how recent was that work carried out?

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RichmondMumof2 · 26/04/2020 10:23

We had a shower room converted into a utility room and had a similar surprise.

At the time it felt very much like your experience but with hindsight it was fair as there was some scope creep. Builders do quote estimates and it sounds like he was also paying his apprentices. My description of utility room meant he was expecting very bottom end tiles, units and flooring. I wanted decent cabinets, herringbone flooring and a granite worktop. The fact that it took longer than expected was where the extra cost came in.

ZooeyS · 26/04/2020 10:36

It sounds extortionate to me, but I’m not in London! I’ve just had a smallish bathroom remodelled which involved building an entirely new walk in shower by knocking down a wall and extending into what was a cupboard in a room behind the bathroom. Absolutely lovely guys working on it, the room looks really fantastic, and the entire project has come in at less than £4.5k.

dalrympy · 26/04/2020 11:35

I think the 7k for the other works is probably not too bad.

This is outting but for my smallish two bed flat I paid £13k for the following -

New fuse board and additional plugs and wiring
Flooring throughout inc fitting of LVT in large open plan area kitchen and bathroom
Replacement of all radiators to vertical ones
Complete replacement of bathroom, full tiling etc
Total redecoration of the whole flat
Replacement and fitting of all internal doors
Replacement of skirting boards
Complete new plumbing for washing machine in different room.
Multiple dump runs which cost a lot around here!

As I said, that was mates rates, done at cost but £13k is what I paid in total including the materials, bathroom suite, new doors etc.
Basically the only thing I didn't do was get a whole new kitchen. Though the builders did do some carpentry in there for me.

Smallgoon · 26/04/2020 12:07

@dalrympy £13k for all of that sounds great tbh, but if I'd have kept him on, I'd have paid minimum of £14600 on labour alone. I say minimum because no doubt he would have taken longer and then demanded extra for this. When I total up the cost of labour and all materials (bathroom, livingroom & kitchen, inc cost of kitchen units) my reno works would have come in at £29-30k. Which does seem steep for a 1 bed flat which isn't a doer upper. It's a new build, albeit 12yrs old and needed a refresh.

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caringcarer · 26/04/2020 13:15

Whatever you do don't pay this person any more money. Tell him you are not satisfied with quality of work and time frame for job. Tell him he is welcome to take you to small claims court. You would win.

Smallgoon · 26/04/2020 13:39

@caingcarer He's just using this as a defense mechanism. He's aware that I won't be paying him an extra penny, and he knows I've raised concerns at the workmanship. He's now claiming I'm making it all up in order to get out of paying him for week 4. When we finally had an honest discussion, I told him that I felt he'd swindled me out of an extra week's labour, and he said 'well fine, I'll pay it back' but of course, now he'll try to say we're even since I haven't paid him for the decorating work (which basically consisted of him painting my bedroom, ripping out the flooring and carpet, and pulling apart the kitchen, whilst helping himself to all appliances). He'd pulled the flooring and carpet up on the final day of week 3 (which he received payment for) and week 4 was essentially spent pulling apart the kitchen and painting the bedroom, for which he believes he is owed £2k. God knows why it took an entire week for him to do these two things. Bearing in mind, this was also around the time when the corona stuff was beginning to kick off, and I did wonder if they were deliberately trying to prolong work because they knew it was guaranteed income for them.

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earsup · 26/04/2020 14:22

Hi
yes I am east london, I think i was very lucky to find Peter, he was visiting from warsaw and decided to stay a bit longer in london, he stayed near my aunt and painted her house so got chatting to him and found out he did tiling etc..I got my shower cubicle off ebay for £160, basin also off ebay for £40, taps were £20, tiles are the giant 60 by 60m ones from b and q in the clearance sale for £200...sand and cement cost £20 and plaster cost £22..coving cost £24, light from Ikea cost £14., one spotlight cost £18 from screwfix, tile adhesive cost £140, toilet was £44 from wickes,thermostat and shower spray cost £60 off ebay...not the best quality tho.....peter did the wiring also although not an electrician but was ok and got a cert off an electrician later...So most of what i paid out was labour as materials were sourced carefully to keep costs done..i inherited a 4 bedroom wreck so had to be careful with my 20k budget, in the end peter stayed on in london and i paid him a flat fee of £450 a week to work on the house and he essentially did everything for me..[ he stayed in the house rent free during the works]...he returned to warsaw and came back to london a few years ago and now rents my spare room and we are friends and its great having an onsite person here who can fix basically anthing that needs doing...

I think you need to see all the receipts and get a proper breakdown off your builder off costs so you can see labour and materials...if he wont produce receipts then you can find the items online and price up as you did with the radiators. my work was done appx 5 years ago...I will try to put some pics of what peter did...I must add that when he was in poland, a friend used the my builder site for a bathroom job and the man was useless...absolutely shocking work, he didnt know how to fit the shower seals so chucked them in the skip..!! so she fired him after a few days and stopped his cheque and waited until peter returned to uk and then used him..Some of those sites won't allow poor reviews or they can be removed by the builders etc...good luck...

Did I get fleeced by my builder on bathroom remodel?