Converted loft with no building regulation certificate -- Can it be counted as a bedroom?

[ginger09]

We are buying a house which is advertised as 4 beds. Just before moving to the exchange, it turned out the converted loft, which has been named as a bedroom, has never obtained building regulation completion certificate. As we raised this issue, their solicitor, as well as ours, suggested indemnity insurance be put in place to cover the risk of authority enforcement.

We understand the purpose of indemnity here. However, what we are concerned about are 1) whether this property can be sold as 4 beds, and 2) whether we can use this space as a habitable room with no safety concerns. And also, 3) the extent indemnity insurance would cover.

For the first question, I've read a lot online and learned it cannot be sold as 4 beds. Interestingly enough though, our solicitor says the converted loft with no certificate wouldn't affect the value of the property, and it can be still sold as a 4 beds house from the legal perspective. This contrasts with what we've learned from our research. Can anyone help us find reliable information on this matter?

For the second point on the safety concerns, the building survey did not specifically raise major issues. However, we are concerned about how this can affect our building insurance and possible liability issues that might come up if we rent out the house in the future.

Lastly, let's say we get indemnity insurance. To be fair, the conversion was done 10 years ago, and I doubt the council wants to tear it down at this point as far as we don't approach them. But what if we want to make an alteration to the existing loft in the future and thus need to get their permission? Will the insurance cover this risk as well?

We are willing to buy the property IF they agree to re-negotiate the price as 3 beds with extra space, not 4, so that we can put all the aforementioned risks aside.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

Watching with interest. Difficult one!

Personally I would ring up your local council planning officer and ask advice before completing on the sale

I don’t know what “from the legal perspective” means? It can’t be advertised as a 4 bed, because it technically isn’t. What you use it as when you’ve bought it is entirely up to you.
I would imagine it would very much affect the value.

My understanding (which may well be wrong!) is that there is a "limitation" period, after which the council can no longer take enforcement action (ie require you to make amends). After ten years that must have already expired I think.

In which case you're as legal as we are! We live in a Victorian terrace built by utter cowboys. It certainly never had building-control approval, and wouldn't pass by modern standards. But once you're out of the limitation period it no longer matters.

I wouldn't worry about what it's described as.

But, re the building regs, the issue presumably is fire safety so even if the local authority won't enforce, you need to know that it's safe. Indemnity insurance doesn't cover that!

This was the case with the kitchen extension on our house. The sellers got the planning dept to send a building inspector round and he looked at it and issued the certificate.

Good grief! Don't ring the local planning officer. If they identify the property, you'll invalidate the indemnity insurance.

I'm only a renter not a buying but when I rented a house with attic conversion,it was used as a 4th bedroom by all previous and future tenants but advertised as 3 bed,the house has recently sold as a 3 bed also.Saw a house for sale on right move where the attic was obviously used as bedroom but the legal bit stated planning permission granted but no building cert so again advertised as a 3 bed not 4

Our attic conversion is 16 years old. We didn't contact planning and recently looked at selling it. The council told us we needed retrospective planning and fire doors fitted throughout the entire house.

Bffff it’s a three bed and a potential problem. Stand your ground. Why should the seller get you to pay a 4 bed price for doing things illegally and without safety guarantees?

I wouldn’t pay a for bed price for a three bed and storage room. My life conversion was done 18 years ago with full buildings regulation. Ten years is nothing, no excuse for not following procedures.

Insurance is basically a tool used by solicitors to push sale through of property that not compliant . it's basically covers the fact you have no certification . I doubt it will cover anything else . similar insurance is used on windows boilers electrics stoves etc without certification .
It should be sold as 3 bed with loft storage and insured as 3 bed .
Its up to you if you want to use as a bedroom then its your responsibly to makes sure it compliant with regulations . you can get retrospective permission but its a difficult process and often involves a lot of work depending on the standard of work . some lofts do meet all the regulations but never get signed off and often will pass with any problems . often it better to use a private firm who will advise on the work and will issue a certificate of compliance . council authorities very rarely advise on work and will often not issue certification on completed conversion . PWC is a private building control firm and can provide guidance and help through the process then issue certification once the conversion is compliant .

@Thisismytimetoshine Because our estate agent was insisting it doesn't have any issues to be sold as 4 beds, I made an inquiry to our solicitor whether this is really the case "from a legal perspective". And he said yes! This makes us frustrated because our solicitor, let alone the agency, is the only person who says it can be 4 beds, contrary to all the advice we've found elsewhere!

If it is not a "habitable room" it is a 3 bed not 4 , with the loft as storage, and be priced accordingly. We have similar but the stairs at least have buildings regs. The loft itself was fitted out when the house was built and stairs added later.

@LuluJakey1 So if I understood correctly, during the purchasing process, you had sellers get the retrospect inspection? We'd love to do the same instead of taking risks by getting indemnity. How long did it take to get the inspection done?

I'm sorry I can't help with any answers, but to add to your list of questions, do you have a mortgage? If so, given the stage you are at, I assume the survey was done some time ago. Is the lender aware of the situation as it could significantly affect their valuation and willingness to lend.

@MaggieFS Yes we are getting a mortgage through a broker! The lender conducted their own survey but did not question anything back then, neither we were aware of the issue. We would definitely need to talk with them as the situation has changed. I guess we need to raise this to our broker ASAP? Do you think there is a chance the lender would withdraw their decision at all?

@Lifesabeach86 That's exactly the situation we are afraid of! How come the council came in during the process? Any reason you had to reach out to them for selling the property?

It can't be counted as a bedroom and shouldn't have been advertised as one.

10yrs ago they have no excuse for not having certification
My concerns would be fire safety & escape, structural integrity (ceiling and attic joists aren't necessarily big enough to support regular use as a room) , electrical safety, insulation, and if there is a en-suite that the plumbing is correctly connected - if all these things were done then they would have got it signed off, they didn't so it's likely to be deficient in some way
Planning won't care because loft conversions are generally covered by permitted development
Building regulations are completely separate and deal with the health & safety & energy efficiency of your property and give the minimum levels you should meet.
Retrospective would be hard to get at this point as you would have to meet current regs not the ones from 10yrs ago and with regards to energy efficiency they have improved. It's also hard to prove structural without opening up the walls & floors to see what they've done and you will need to provide calculations. Engineers are unlikely to approve other people's work as it brings about liability issues.
Un-certified works may be fine but if that was the case I'd be wondering why they are uncertified

@littlejalapeno "It's a three-bed and a potential problem." - This really gives me perspective. Tbh, I am more annoyed by our solicitor than the seller (sellers would try to maximise the value of the house anyways), as he doesn't explain anything about the risks we will need to take, instead just telling us everything will be fine with indemnity insurance, which doesn't seem to be correct!!

From a legal point of view, getting indemnity insurance works, provided that the loft conversion is not dangerous. Your surveyor should be able to confirm that.
However you are right in thinking future works could be adversely affected. Are there any certificates available, e.g. For the electric work? Or a receipt that could be followed up showing at least that the works were carried out by competent, regularised trades people?
You could contact the council for retrospective consent( or better, get the seller to do that) but then you would not be able to get indemnity insurance.

@DelphiniumBlue When you say "getting indemnity insurance works", does it mean once insurance is in place, the loft can be sold as a bedroom?
I don't think they have any certificates for the conversion. Maybe it would be best to have the sellers get regularisation, although there's a risk that it wouldn't be obtained within the agreed time and the whole chain would fall apart

@BobTheDuvet I wish our solicitor gave us more detailed advice really. My impression is that he is trying to avoid answering my questions on future risks we should take and just wants to close the deal as easy as possible.

I think your experience is very relevant to ours. I am inclined to go for the regularisation option, although we should take a risk of leading the whole chain to get broken. We are taking risks either way,!