Converted loft with no building regulation certificate -- Can it be counted as a bedroom?

[ginger09]

We are buying a house which is advertised as 4 beds. Just before moving to the exchange, it turned out the converted loft, which has been named as a bedroom, has never obtained building regulation completion certificate. As we raised this issue, their solicitor, as well as ours, suggested indemnity insurance be put in place to cover the risk of authority enforcement.

We understand the purpose of indemnity here. However, what we are concerned about are 1) whether this property can be sold as 4 beds, and 2) whether we can use this space as a habitable room with no safety concerns. And also, 3) the extent indemnity insurance would cover.

For the first question, I've read a lot online and learned it cannot be sold as 4 beds. Interestingly enough though, our solicitor says the converted loft with no certificate wouldn't affect the value of the property, and it can be still sold as a 4 beds house from the legal perspective. This contrasts with what we've learned from our research. Can anyone help us find reliable information on this matter?

For the second point on the safety concerns, the building survey did not specifically raise major issues. However, we are concerned about how this can affect our building insurance and possible liability issues that might come up if we rent out the house in the future.

Lastly, let's say we get indemnity insurance. To be fair, the conversion was done 10 years ago, and I doubt the council wants to tear it down at this point as far as we don't approach them. But what if we want to make an alteration to the existing loft in the future and thus need to get their permission? Will the insurance cover this risk as well?

We are willing to buy the property IF they agree to re-negotiate the price as 3 beds with extra space, not 4, so that we can put all the aforementioned risks aside.

Any advice would be much appreciated!

I guess your solicitor is trying to cover the legal side of the purchase.
indemnity insurance won't cover the safety side of the conversion and the council can enforce their rules regardless if it's over 10 years if it unsafe.

@mumsy27 That's an interesting point! If we (the sellers actually) get indemnity insurance while confirming safety issues with the surveyor, do you think it would be worth moving forward with the purchase? But still, building insurance wouldn't cover the loft as a habitable room..

Did they strengthen the attic floor amongst other factors.

I had this when I bought my first house. It had been advertised as a three bed, but when nearing completion it turned out the loft room had no certification. I ended up getting some money knocked off. I was going to get the certification but after building control came to advise, I decided against it as was quite a bit of work and I didn't need it for use as a bedroom.

When it came to selling the house, it was advertised as three bedrooms at first which was wrong and one prospective buyer was not very impressed by this (fakse advertising etc). I made sure to tell the agent it was only a two bed plus storage room. I think it can affect the house insurance too if a person was sleeping in there and anything was to happen.
I would be asking for some money off or for them to get building control round to see if they can get it signed off before you purchase.

If it does not have BR approval, you must assume it does not meet the standards.

Let's suppose, for example, it is not properly insulated (very common) and is unbearably hot in summer, and unbearably cold in winter.

Let's suppose the floor joists were not reinforced, and the ceilings below sag and crack.

Let's suppose the roof timbers were sawn off and the roof pushes the house walls apart.

Lets suppose if is not properly protected against fire, and flames from downstairs funnel up into the loft room.

All of these things happen.

Would you regret buying it?

@ginger09 I don't know, I'm not an expert but I guess the first question is - worst case it can't be used as a bedroom - then what's a fair valuation of the property? Your mortgage offer could be affected if the value changes your LTV ratio?
But, I would think if this does happen you've got robust grounds to go back to the vendor... can't get a mortgage on that value with one less bedroom - might make the vendors get any necessary works and certification sorted.

If you’re not happy with the solicitor you can let them go and get another. You’ll have to push for what you want either way. A lot of people get away with doing the bare minimum for their fee, sad and frustrating as that is. Decide what you want and push for it. Spending a bit more now in fees and advice will pay off in the long run, especially if you save on the mortgage. Good luck! It’s really tricky, I wish I knew what I know now when I was a first time buyer. Don’t take any sh**.

Most important aspects is the safety of your family and you, if the seller can prove that, anything else is negotiable.
The price has to be right and reflect the current situation, not it's potentials

Be really careful- has the loft room flooring been done properly with all the correct support? We bought a house like this and it turned out that the flooring had not had the correct strengthening beams or staircase. To redo this cost us more than if we had done a loft conversion from scratch.

Were the current owners in residence when the conversion was carried out?

As @Henryloveseatinglego and @BobTheDuvet have suggested, it could very well be the case that the conversion was inspected whilst the work was taking place, but the final inspection never occured meaning a completion certificate was never issued. It is terrifically common.

Start by asking questions of the current owners either via your solicitor or the estate agent:

• Were they the owners when the work was done?
• Are they aware of any inspections having taken place?
• Have they retained any documentation from when the work was done?

What sort of survey did you have carried out? Assuming you had at least a homebuyers it's well worth talking it through with your surveyor.

@Mildura The conversion was done under the seller's ownership 10 years ago (They've been living there for 20 years or so). The solicitor's search found there was an entry for building regulation approval, but wasn't signed off.

They explained that they had a building inspector attend the property but cannot see a completion statement was issued.

We got a building survey without being aware of this issue very well. (We had been rather distracted by other minor concerns.) It was the surveyor who raised a red flag that we need to see the certificate, although he doesn't seem to have found major safety concerns.

What kind of other documentation we can request, other than completion certificate?

The whole situation is frustrating indeed because the loft room is one of the things that made us love the house in the first place. The house was 'nearly' ticking all the boxes, so it would be a pain to let it go. But at the same time, we don't want to fool ourselves by taking their problems on us.

That strongly suggests that it was just the final inspection that did not take place, which is probably the best case scenario right now.

That the search results make some reference to a loft conversion is a good thing. It shows it very likely wasn't someone dodgy trying to do it all on the cheap.

Don't let some of the more alarmist posts worry you too much at this stage.

The next thing to try and discover is was it the local council who inspected or was it a private building control firm? (As already mentioned do not at this stage contact the local council)

It is such a common occurence. I recently had a loft conversion, once the builders were all gone they never chased up the final inspection, as far as they were concerned they had been paid and were off site, on to the next job. The building control firm themselves weren't chasing me, they'd been paid too so whether they made a final inspection to sign the whole thing off or not didn't make any real difference to them. It was only because I chased them myself to avoid a situation like this when I came to sell that I have final sign-off.

Surely it’s a 3 bedroom house with a loft room which may or may not pass building regs. The only thing that is really affected is the price of the house and it should be reduced accordingly unless the current owners get it signed off now. If there are no major concerns then it shouldn’t be a huge issue to get it confirmed but until then it’s definitely not a bedroom.

Although of course you could just pay an inflated price for a 3 bed and then do what you will with the room.

@Mildura Thanks for sharing your experience. So it is a builder's job to get the inspection to get a certificate?

After reading all the threads I'm inclined to have the sellers get regularisation themselves before signing the contract. Is it something can be obtained through a private company and not necessarily the council?

We are chain-free, so not confined to a specific timeline except the mortgage offer. Their purchase is well advanced though, thus there's a risk that the regularisation process would break the whole chain!

No. I've got a loft conversion that we did ourselves (ex-h was a builder) but we had to have building regs people in at various stages to approve things like the steels in the roof, the fire escape window, we had to have fire doors throughout. They did not issue a certificate until the project was completed and they undertook a final inspection. I would suggest the onus is on the sellers to organise a completion certificate and until then it can't be described as a four bed property.

It is generally the builders role to get building regs sorted out, but in my experience a not inignificant number aren't great at the admin side of the job!

Ideally the owners really need to get in touch with whoever inspected whilst the work was taking place. Someone obviously did as it wouldn't be included on the search results otherwise. It might be the council themselves, or it might have been a private building control firm.

Whoever it was should hopefully have records going back 10 years to say what was inspected, how often, and what was left to inspect before final completion certificate was issued.

If succesful it should avoid the need for aspects of the conversion (floor strengthining, fire proofing etc) to be exposed in order to verify what was done.

@mildura Sounds like the best option for us! Is it correct that retrospective sign-off is something different from regularisation which might open a whole new scene?

Yeah, I think that's the only option I'd push for at this stage.

Indemnity insurance is pretty much pointless in my view. The only thing it covers you for is from the cost of the council taking enforcement action for lack of building regs, which simply isn't going to happen on a loft conversion donwe 10 years ago.

Perhaps one of the solicitors who post here might be better placed to confirm, but as I understand it retrospective sign off and regularisation are effectively the same thing.

With luck (for both you and the sellers) it's only the final inspection which needs to take place before a certificate can be issued.

@Henryloveseatinglego Getting a private company (if possible, the one that seller was in contact during the work) seems a reasonable option. I am about to suggest it to our solicitor! Wish me luck!!

A private building control firm who have not inspected the work at a fairly early stage won't be a great deal of use, that's why it's so important to try and find out eaxactly who did at least some sort of inspection whilst the work was taking place.

Would it be possible for you to say the sale is conditional on the vendor getting building regulations sign of from the council before you buy it.

The solicitor's search found there was an entry for building regulation approval, but wasn't signed off.
Something similar happened to us when e had put lift converted. The inspector involved retired and didn't get his paperwork in order before he left. We only found out when we remortgaged. We got the council back, had all the paperwork about inspections etc and eventually we got the council to sign it off. Could be something sj ikar has happened to your vendors?

Nope, it's a loft room, not a loft conversion. This is a 3 bed house with a loft room. If you use it as a permanent bedroom and there is an accident you will not be insured. The vendors and their agent are acting illegally. Contact them and let them know - ask for a reduced price to reflect the 3 bed status.

This www.greaterlondonproperties.co.uk/can-call-loft-room-extra-bedroom/ Might be helpful in clarifying the difference?

Nope, it's a loft room, not a loft conversion

At present it doesn't have a completion certificate, but that might be something that can be resolved fairly easily.

I think I might be minded to hold off on the "you're acting illegally approach" for the time being!