Advice please: cost caused by seller's delay

[moniack]

Hi, I'm a first time buyer in London. BF and I had our offer accepted on a house at the beginning of Dec 2015. We were told there was no chain but the seller was very, very slow with providing legal documents (only got them by the end of Feb and still some outstanding questions). It turned out that there is not only a chain, but a very complicated one with selling two to buy one, family inheritance issues blablabla... The seller said twice that they were going to exchange but then later cancelled because their seller couldn't exchange with them that day. From what the agent told us, they missed the April 1st stamp duty deadline because of their seller's fault. They had to re-negotiate and their seller agreed to compensate for that. It seems that if we pull out now, it's going to leave them over a shit creek without a paddle. But both BF and I are really pissed off, they just assume that we are desperate and never going to change our mind so they would only exchange when it's completely safe for them, not to mention lying to us from the very beginning. We are now thinking of asking for a reduction, not a greedy one, just to cover the last two months rent, something 3k, less than 1% of the house price.

People who have sold houses before, could you be so kind to advise if it's a reasonable thing to do. We can afford to lose the house as we actually budged higher than this current house and the stamp duty thing may cool down the market a little bit now. But I don't want to create bitterness and worried they might accept and then do some damage to the house before they leave. (they seem to be quite selfish people judged from their behaviour).

Thanks again.

Good luck, Op.

The sellers lied about the chain, failed to exchange three times now - why on earth shouldn't you negotiate compensation?

They're don't have to pay. You're willing to walk away, and you're free to do so. No idea why so many posters are shocked by this.

The system is predicated on the assumption that the little person at the bottom of the chain - that's you, the FTB - will put up with crap from everyone above. Because 'that's the way things are done'.

Best of luck to you!

We were all ftbs once so this alleged attitude towards ftbs is fabrication. The truth of the matter is that the process is not as stressful nor is as there as much riding on it for a ftb. Failing to accept that is naive. Compensation for failing to exchange? Why, that happened to us on Monday. You just have to roll with it because you have not suffered a quantifiable loss.

So, update.

No exchange on Tuesday either, with the most ridiculous excuse ever: the seller's seller's solicitor was just back from a two weeks holiday and "will exchange on Wednesday". (if that's the case why why on earth could you say three times in the last two weeks that you were about to exchange?!!)

And, of course no exchange today. The seller's solicitor completely ignored us the whole day, and called by the end of the day and said "still not ready".

So, I guess I wasn't jumping the gun (this thread turned out to be quite helpful for learning idioms!)

And to Lightninggirl, sorry for being rude to you, but hope now you can see why I'm so annoyed and greed is not the drive of the thread!

As to people who think rent when you can live in your house with a much cheaper mortgage payment is not "quantifiable loss", I really, really don't know what to say......

Fair play OP, it seem you have a point- they are messing around although we are still only talking days not weeks.

So what happens now- wasn't your penalty to be invoked after today? What was the penalty?

Yes, we are thinking of a month's rent, something 1k, which is what we have to pay our landlord if they didn't exchange before Wednesday and complete within in a week.

It's not just about time, it's about trust. I suspect there is something seriously wrong with the chain, and they just want to get a bit of time by lying to us. In which case we do think we need to be compensated for a chain which we were never told about, and whose delay is not our fault whatsoever.

At the same time, we have to start looking at other options, the whole thing smells suspicious and I have lost most of my interest in that place.

I would walk away now if they are still messing around, not get in to trying to get compensation.

OP, there seems to be huge communication issues between you/ your solicitors and the vendor / their solicitors.

You said previously that you'd instructed your solicitor to impose a deadline of today with penalties yet today has passed and you're still only thinking of an amount fir a penalty so that clearly wasn't seriously presented to the vendor.

Likewise, your solicitor must have been speaking to their solicitor if exchange was supposed to happen on Monday or Tuesday so if they are now saying the solicitor was on holiday someone is lying.

What continues to be frustrating is your insistance that you are owed compensation for them lying about the chain- you are absolutely not owed anything for that.

It is fine to say if we don't exchange by x date we insist on being paid x amount, for no other reason than this is the date we previously agreed, and if that doesn't happen we will pull out.

Making idle threats is pointless as is trying to be compensated for people who don't tell the whole truth during the house purchase process.

I misused the word "thinking about". We said to our solicitor about the ddl and reduction, and otherwise we would pull out very clearly on Monday. We did give reason to our solicitor, but I trust him would be able to communicate that well.

It seems we have done the best we can do now so far...

Our seller's solicitor has been there all the time, except for ignoring us today. Their new excuse was "their seller's solicitor has been holiday.", so they must be lying.

About walking away, like I said, I already booked a couple of viewings now. And we don't rely on this property anymore.

Our seller's solicitor has been there all the time, except for ignoring us today. Their new excuse was "their seller's solicitor has been holiday.", so they must be lying.

So who has your solicitor been talking to for the last 2 weeks, bearing in mind this covers the entire period since you found out about the chain (end of March) and tried to exchange 4 (?) times.

It doesn't sound like your solicitor is being entirely honest either. They would know if they had spoken to the other solicitor in the last 2 weeks or not?

Our solicitor (let's call him A) has been in contact with to our seller's solicitor (called B), and seller's solicitor (B) keeps saying "we will exchange the next working day, chain is not ready yet", but it never happened.

Yesterday, when our solicitor (A) contacted seller's solicitor (B), B said "their seller's solicitor (C)" had been on holiday in the last two weeks, so B must be lying, as in order to find out about the about the chain B must have talked to C in the last two weeks.

Can't see our solicitor lying here. And it's the fifth time they failed to exchange.

The problem with so many parties being involved in the chain is that actually no-one really knows what anyone is waiting for - could be that by the time your solicitor got the ok from the solicitor above, that it was too late to draw down funds from the lender and therefore exchange/completion couldn't happen today. Similarly, if someone was late paying their deposit and the funds hadn't shown up in the office account, again exchange won't happen. There are a lot of people all dependent on each other, but that also means that everyone has to play their part.

When funds are needed, it is no good posting a cheque or doing online banking on the last day as some of my clients do. The EA may be told different things by different solicitors and clients but also the mortgage lenders require 5 working days to transfer mortgage monies and if not enough notice is given, it also delays exchange and completion. To be honest, it happens all the time but unless on the day of completion you are unable to collect the keys and/or funds don't get transferred in time (someone is in breach of contract), I really can't see why you would get compensated. It may not be ideal (and the English conveyancing system may need improving), but unless you agree with your vendor an amount of recompense agreeable to you both, I cannot see you succeeding with this.

Many clients want to demand exchange by a certain date - it gives an indication of when everyone would like to move, but please be clear that it can only be an indication. If the chain is not ready, it is not ready - that means no exchange until ready whatever the client has demanded.

It is not "lying" as such. Your solicitor may well be ready to exchange, but he is not to know that someone else in the chain is not ready until they make the phone call to effect the exchange.

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation from a professional point of view. I understand the complications about a chain, however, the situation now is despite the fact they had been talking about exchanging "next day" for five times in the last two weeks, the lastest update turned out to be solicitor C (representing our seller's seller) had been "on holiday" at that time. I think it's not possible, because the seller's solicitor must be in touch with the seller's seller's solicitor in the last two weeks to be able to talk about exchanging. I don't think any solicitor would lie, but even our solicitor found the situation to be rather strange.

OP - I have sympathy for your position. They have lied to you from the outset. I would give them a deadline and then reduce your price if they fail to meet it, especially if you can afford to walk away.

We have had this twice - one move, a set of solicitors lying to cover their backs as they'd done no work. My dh spent a day driving between offices with documents waiting for legal people/admin people to do work on them before taking them to the next destination to unblock one move. The second instance was more annoying, similar to yours where the vendor had lied about chains and urgency of moving that resulted in us and the chain below us being ready for weeks because we had rushed them whilst they did stuff at their own pace. If they had told us the truth we would have worked with them.

I don't get the amount of lying that people do when selling - people who think they are cash buyers when they need to sell their house to have the cash - that's not a cash buyer, that's a mortgage free buyer. People who say they are chain free, then acquire one, people who say they will move into rented then won't - these people are scum, treat them like they treat you.

I am sorry you are having a difficult time but unfortunately this seems to be how it works in England. We had a similar situation where our vendors were going to go into rented but then found a house to buy so had an unexpected chain and the process was really drawn out. It was worth waiting though as I love the house that we bought and we are still here 17 years later!

I'm not sure about your "loss" though. Surely you are earning interest on your 50% deposit at the moment? If you had the mortgage you would be paying interest rather than earning it, so the difference is probably quite small.

I would try to hold your nerve - it sounds like exchange is imminent. We exchanged and completed on the same day.

I think a lot of the lying is the estate agents. We sold our house to a ftb bought an empty property in the process clearing the mortgage so a very simple chain only the ftb had a mortgage. The owners of our empty property insisted on a quick sale ourselves and ftb rushed around like maniacs rang up said we are ready to exchange and then it turned out they didn't actually own the empty property. The mother had died the four sons were selling it on behalf of the estate on which probate hadn't started. They had never asked for a quick sale it was just ea trying negotiating tactics.

Lighteningirll - totally agree with you regarding EAs. Anyone can ask an EA to advertise a house to sell. The EA doesn't see the title deeds and therefore has little knowledge of the legalities. They also don't know whether the "stunning open plan living area" was obtained by removing a load-bearing wall, or that the two parking spaces are not included in the title deeds! This is exactly what solicitors find when gathering all the paperwork. It's all very well expressing the desire for a quick sale but if there are irregularities such as you've experienced, then the solicitor would be extremely negligent in allowing 4 children to sell a property that wasn't legally theirs to sell! It would be lovely if all conveyancing matters were concluded very quickly (vast majority of clients seem to think theirs is more urgent than anyone else's), but it is important to go through all paperwork very carefully so that the buyer is not left with a legal nightmare.

So, I know no one would be watching this but after such a long thread and so many warm-hearted people giving their advice I feel a bit obligated to update how it ended up.

A week after the deadline I gave them, our seller's solicitor said to ours that "everyone in the chain is ready, I'm just waiting for my client to give it a go. " That go didn't happen, then we gave the agent the last call, and guess what? They came back to us and said "oh, for some reason the second property they are selling fell through, so they had to find another buyer, I think they will exchange in a week " (Of course they didn't. Interestingly, the property we were buying from them also suffered from a last minute pull-out before us, now I understand why, they really made things very difficult for buyers! In fact, if we were still interested in that house, we would still be waiting NOW, and that's five month since our offer been accepted).

Anyway, we finally gave up and looked somewhere else. We made four offers, three are accepted, including our favourite one, and most importantly, it's vacant and chain free! It's smaller and more expensive, but in a much nicer area. My feeling is since the stamp duty change kicked in, things become a lot easier for buyers. All our offers are accepted below the asking price. As for our previous seller, I'm sorry that last minute pull-out happened three times to them,, but I do hope they would learn from it and avoid it next time.

Well I hope it works out for you. I don't agree with you making offers on multiple properties though - that's two sellers you've pissed off there.

But you'll be pulling out on 2 of the 3 sales you're now involved with ?! Seems rather hypocritical when you're saying you hope your sellers learn not to mess people around.

So the threats about them having to pay your rent didn't work and as most people said, it was a case of going with it or pulling out. You've pulled out.

Yes, it's very tricky situation, to be honest I don't know what the norm is. When we were negotiating we were open about we had other offers accepted and the agent didn't raise any objection. So I guess as long as we make the final decision fairly quickly (i.e, a couple of days) it will be fine.

Either you want your favourite or you don't. Do not make those other two sellers wait any longer before you tell them you are not proceeding. Honestly, after all you said about the sellers of the previous house on this thread I find this staggering.

Wow that's staggeringly hypocritical. You do realise that a property comes off the market once an offer is accepted? That means those poor people are proceeding believing they have a genuine buyer when at least two of them don't. Have you decided how much compensation you will give them for their wasted time or are you the only person entitled to compensation and everyone else can go fish?

Disgraceful behaviour OP. We are selling at the moment, if someone made and offer we would be thrilled. Would immediately start the process of buying the house we are interested in, would be contacting our mortgage provider, ringing our parents/friends to let them know the process had started etc etc. Each person you have offered on will be doing the same thing and now you are about to pull out on them.

I hope that I NEVER have involvement with a buyer like you. Completely without understanding of the system or morals, willing to gazunder if things take longer than you expect. And no, paying rent is not a financial loss. Paying rent is what grown ups do when they want a place to live - it's a simple financial transaction, you pay money someone lets you stay in their house/flat. Now you are going to be paying rent for at least another 12 weeks while this purchase goes through.

It sounds like the chain you were in was flaky but what you do is not threaten to gazunder. You either walk away or start speaking to your solicitor every day until you are convinced a resolution is either going to happen or not.

The very least you can do is to contact the two poor sellers who think they have a buyer first thing this morning and let them know you have no intention whatsoever of following up on your offer.