Advice please: cost caused by seller's delay

[moniack]

Hi, I'm a first time buyer in London. BF and I had our offer accepted on a house at the beginning of Dec 2015. We were told there was no chain but the seller was very, very slow with providing legal documents (only got them by the end of Feb and still some outstanding questions). It turned out that there is not only a chain, but a very complicated one with selling two to buy one, family inheritance issues blablabla... The seller said twice that they were going to exchange but then later cancelled because their seller couldn't exchange with them that day. From what the agent told us, they missed the April 1st stamp duty deadline because of their seller's fault. They had to re-negotiate and their seller agreed to compensate for that. It seems that if we pull out now, it's going to leave them over a shit creek without a paddle. But both BF and I are really pissed off, they just assume that we are desperate and never going to change our mind so they would only exchange when it's completely safe for them, not to mention lying to us from the very beginning. We are now thinking of asking for a reduction, not a greedy one, just to cover the last two months rent, something 3k, less than 1% of the house price.

People who have sold houses before, could you be so kind to advise if it's a reasonable thing to do. We can afford to lose the house as we actually budged higher than this current house and the stamp duty thing may cool down the market a little bit now. But I don't want to create bitterness and worried they might accept and then do some damage to the house before they leave. (they seem to be quite selfish people judged from their behaviour).

Thanks again.

Op, I can totally understand why you're cross! The vendor lying to you about the chain is a big lie. In a no-chain purchase, you could expect the sale to go through a lot quicker than 17 weeks.

Also, I'd wonder what else they were lying about if they'd lied about the chain.

I'd press for an exchange date and tell your solicitor know that you will pull out after this date if you don't exchange by then.

evrybuddy thank you for your description of me as an idiot. I appreciate that people have different views but there is no need to be rude.

And yes, a first time buyer at the bottom of the chain is, in my view, the easiest part to replace. It stands to reason that finding someone to buy a property (one transaction), without the complications of someone further up the chain who has to buy and sell (therefore involving at least 2 transactions) is easier.

Estate agents round here are telling people that they are not allowed to view houses to buy unless they are ftb, investors or have accepted an offer in their own place. It's unlikely your vendors could start looking until after your offer was accepted so they probably didn't lie to you but theEA should have been absolutely clear what the position was. Funny how rarely the EA is clear.

Estate agents are never clear. They are the very definition of glass half full thinking. I believe, happy to be corrected, that they aren't regulated however so there is not much anyone can do.

Our sale (Ftb and we went into rented) was 12 weeks start to finish.

Our purchase (we were renting and sellers were not in a chain) was 18 weeks.

With a chain things will take longer. It is how it is and getting cross makes now difference.

@Lighteningirll

Same answer from everyone, chill?

Don't put your word in other people's month. If you bother to read the second post you wouldn't come to such a hilarious conclusion.

I thought nowadays literacy is necessary for posting online, I'm probably wrong.

to namechangedtoday15,

"And yes, a first time buyer at the bottom of the chain is, in my view, the easiest part to replace. It stands to reason that finding someone to buy a property (one transaction), without the complications of someone further up the chain who has to buy and sell (therefore involving at least 2 transactions) is easier."

Can't really agree with this reason. If you are in a middle of a chain, and you are trying to find a buyer, then if it's easy to find or replace a FTB just depends on what percentage of potential buyers are FTB. (from what I saw here, very, very few, great majorities are mid-chainers, but maybe it's because it's a family oriented forum so people are older). You seem to have confused if the buying process is easy, or finding the buyers are easy, if you based you reason on number of transactions. Also, FTB are quite desired in the market, so I doubt they make a big portion of buyers. I hope I had made myself clear.

Oh here is the statistics, "In this year's survey, the share of first–time buyers declined to 32 percent", [http://www.realtor.org/news-releases/2015/11/first-time-buyers-fall-again-in-nar-annual-buyer-and-seller-survey]. So a FTB is twice as much as difficult to find/replace than other buyers. Plus as FTB we lose less if we just walk away.

Anyway, in my situation, does FTB or not even matter? I'm their buyer, they have to sell to someone to get their house, and if they want to do that ASAP, then we are difficult to replace because it takes lots of time to find someone else and get to this stage.

OP - just because other posters don't agree with you and your pal on this thread doesn't mean you have to be so rude and unreasonable. Just do what you want to because no rational, reasonable response on this thread will be given any credence. If it bites you in the backside you can't say you haven't been warned. If you can't stand the heat then get out of the kitchen - buying and selling property in the UK can be tortuous. Doesn't mean anyone has it in for you, has lied to you or has taken you for granted.

I still fail to see how you have lost money when to date no one has any contractual responsibility towards you. And it's this you fail to understand.

I said I was out, but the response to Lightning got my goat!

@LittleBearPad

In your example the OP could pay £6k in rent over 6 months or £11k in mortgage payments. She would still only have reduced her mortgage (which is the bit that actually matters) by £1k or so. Given it would appear she's only been delayed by exchanging by 2-3 weeks the loss is negligible.

I do actually understand the point you are making – obviously, if you sell your house after a year of ownership, you will only have paid a year's interest – not the total 25 year amount of interest.

However, it's disingenuous to use this argument to imply that the OP will suffer negligible losses by continuing to rent over buying.

Because, you know, that in the real world (and this is why you own a house rather than rent) – house prices are rising consistently over the short term and over the long term. In the real world, today, in London, barring disasters, if the OP sold in a year she would get all her mortgage capital payments and interest payments back plus a handsome profit.

So, as she is in a position to buy, and the only barrier to her completion is a selfish vendor – who should be pressured to complete the chain – then she is making a genuine loss by being prevented from switching from rent to mortgage.

The rent she continues to pay is a total and absolute loss - that she has no hope of ever recovering except by seeking redress from the vendor who lied to her about their readiness to progress a sale.

And that loss is all of the rent she continues to pay as a direct result of the vendor's deceit.

If she hadn't been lied to she could have gone ahead with another house 17 weeks ago.

Of course, In this country there is no real legal remedy for her complaint – even though I believe she is morally correct – the only remedy open to her is to ask and use whatever leverage or bargaining power she has – good luck to her.
She knows the consequences – she could lose the house – her vendor now needs to think about the consequences.

And I say good luck to the OP and bad luck to all lying gits, whether they be sellers, buyers, solicitors or estate agents.

OP your post to Lighteningirll was rude. You have asked for advice, many have given it. But you only want to listen to those who seem to agree with you or back your suggested aggressive tactics.

Yes, your vendor might have lied, or been economical with the truth or found themselves in a different situation to that which they first briefed the EA with. Regardless, you are not going to win support or compromise if this thread is an indication of your negotiation style.

Having said that, you state that this is not your dream home. So you should not feel obligated to continue with the purchase if you're heart is not in it. Cut your losses before you commit to something you hugely regret.

But I'm afraid you're going to be very very, lucky if you ever find a straightforward, no complications, smooth house purchase. The system and practice in this country makes stress and uncertainty an inevitable part of the process.

To Gazelda and wowfudge,

I think her response to be as being greedy is very rude, and her point that everyone is against me is simple wrong, and it's so easy to find out she is wrong that makes her looks simply ridiculous. It's very interesting that how your people are so very tolerant towards her behaviour, or our seller's behaviour, while being so fastidious with me.

Also, I have changed my mind and took a less aggressive approach, so don't say I only listen to what I want to listen to. What you people seem to be thinking seems to be hugely biased by your own experience that how difficult it is to be in the mid of a chain, and by projecting yourself to our seller. Yes it's difficult, yes it's stressful, but shouldn't people be a bit more organised and honest? And if they can't be, then it's so unreasonable to ask compensation for the delay? @wowfudge If you missed your stamp duty ddl because of their fault, do you expect them to come to you and say "I still fail to see how you have lost money when to date no one has any contractual responsibility towards you. And it's this you fail to understand."? If so then we are indeed very, very different people, and really shouldn't talk, if not then you are being a hypocrite.

Blimey OP. You posted for advice but you've had a go at most people who have taken the time to give advice.

As for saying you need to be literate to post on line- that's way below the belt.

Most people just go with the flow of the forum they are on- You don't appear to have noticed that it is not forum etiquette to start everyone of your posts with @ or to for example.

That aside, house buying is a nightmare process full of hurdles. Stamping your feet won't change anything. There's nothing wrong with stating your requirements/ making a deadline but equally there's nothing wrong with your vendor declining your demands. You just have to decide what you will to do if they do decline.

Or maybe you don't think Lighteningirll's response was rude at all? Calling someone as being greedy is only not rude when you think it's true. If this is what you think I'm , then we shouldn't talk, too, because I failed to make you understand me after so many posts, maybe my fault, but I tried.

What stamp duty deadline affected you as a FTB? It didn't. I have understood everything posted - I'm not sure you have.

You asked for advice from those with experience. Touché. Those of us who own flats or houses were all ftbs once.

How dare you call me a hypocrite? I'm reporting this thread as your rude ranting is not acceptable.

It's going to be a very quiet thread if you stop talking to everyone........

To bearbehind,

No I won't apologise for what I said about Lighteningirll, what she said is far more worse and malicious and ridiculous. I don't understand what you mean by "Most people just go with the flow of the forum they are on" at all.

To wowfudge,

You are saying no compensation if no contract, then I asked you, if you missed your stamp duty dll because you seller's fault, and they come to you and say "no compensation before contract", do you find it acceptable? If so, we are very different, if not, you are a hypocrite. I'm not calling you a hypocrite, the answer is up to you. Don't try to mess about by saying "you are a FTB so no stamp duty ddl affected you", it's just an example.

Please report Lighteningirll as well, as she called me greedy and it's not any better than "hypocrite". If you don't report her than you are a hypocrite. Again, it's up to you.

I mean, you don't imply other people are illiterate and you do post in the general style of the forum ie don't use 'to' and '@'

I don't even know why you said that, there was nothing illiterate about lighteninggirls post. You may have thought it rude but it wasn't illiterate.

lighteninggirl had a valid point as you won't incur an increased stamp duty cost if you are a first time buyer yet you want a reduction in price because someone higher up the chain has been compensated for their additional stamp duty.

Sorry, but I tend to deal with rudeness with rudeness.

The stamp duty thing is just an example to say yes, people do need to compensate if they delay, even before the contract. The seller won't get an extra penny, the government will. So it's not valid to say I want a share of their compensation. I'm not incurred with extra stamp duty, but I'm incurred with extra rent, and it's all because they said there was no chain, and now there is.

It was not a very good example because it was not clear what you meant.

Just leave it OP. As I've stated before, you should just do what you want. You have lost nothing so far, but you fail to accept that. I am not going to keep banging my head against a proverbial brick wall.

I said she was illiterate because if she read the second post, or some other posts, especially those from evrybuddy, then she wouldn't say everyone is against me. Of course she is not illiterate, it's just my rudeness towards hers.

yes, people do need to compensate if they delay, even before the contract

No they don't.

You might not like and it is what makes the whole process of buying a house in England and Wales such a nightmare, but no one has to compensate anyone for anything unless you delay after exchange.

What stamp duty deadline affected you as a FTB? It didn't. I have understood everything posted - I'm not sure you have.

OP stated in her original post:

From what the agent told us, they missed the April 1st stamp duty deadline because of their seller's fault. They had to re-negotiate and their seller agreed to compensate for that.

It's pretty clear that the stamp duty deadline affected the chain and consequently her.

There's a lot of people on this thread choosing to be haughtily offended by the OP and intentionally misinterpreting what she says and then laying down the law on forum etiquette - as if there are universal rules - or is that an 'This is England, after all.' approach?

Being tetchy and throwing in veiled threats about compensation WILL NOT endear you to your sellers.
If you do not like the length of time the process is taking, you are free to walk away.

of course she is not illiterate, it's just my rudeness towards her

Are we back in the playground now FFS? Would you have stuck your tongue out at her if you could see her?

Get a grip. Do what you want with your vendor- just don't be surprised if they call your bluff and tell you to do one.

everybuddy the stamp duty deadline only affected the OP in terms of time, not additional cost.

She has no right to ask for compensation as she won't be out of pocket because of increased stamp duty.

She might be out of pocket due to the general delay, but as I said above, until you exchange, that's how house buying here works, like it or not.