Subsidence?

[Springforward]

OK, so our unerring ability to find the rubbish houses to view, apparently continues.

We went to see a ?50's build house this evening. Lovely house, semi-rural/ on edge of town, nice schools etc. etc. etc., BUT...

...I will swear that the add-on garage is falling away from the house. When you looked at the back of the house, the "flat" roof was sloping slightly down away from the house, and the door was not square compared to the ones in the main house. The roof line did not meet the main wall by a couple of inches, and the brickwork on the corresponding edge at the front is cracked stepwise through the mortar.

Also, in the utility room-bit which the garage is stuck to, there is a stepped crack through the brickwork mortar radiating at 45 degrees (I couldn't get into the other side of the wall to see if it went through as they'd stuck their enormous dog in there .)

So - don't suppose there happens to be a surveyor/ structural engineer/ someone who knows more than me out there, does there, to tell me whether I am panicking over nothing or not?

DH, of course, thinks I am nuts. He loves the house and is, I suspect, doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and singing loudly.

Sorry - should read, "stepped crack through the brickwork mortar radiating at 45 degrees to the corner of the window in the borrom right-hand corner, opposite the garage side..."

Or even, bottom.

I'm not a surveyor but have seen a lot of houses.

How wide was the crack? Can you fit a coin in it and is the crack wider at the top?

Did you try the windows? Do they stick when they open?

These are classic signs of subsidance. It is quite a common cause of subsidance that an extension pulls away from the building. So I think you need to procede with caution.

If you are keen on this house I advise you hire a structral engineer to come out and view the house with you. They will be able to advise you if it is subsidance, if it is active or historic and the work that would be involved.

There are various different types of 'treatment' and some are relatively inexpensive and easy so don't rule the house out yet, but you must get a professional opinion who can let you know what you are dealing with from the off.

If the SE advises the work to be something you think you would be prepared to do then you adjust the price you pay for the house accordingly.

A lot of people will be put off by the signs so you may have a clear running for the house, but make sure you are fully informed!!

Thanks oreo, that's helpful. I'll sleep on it and try and have a sensible conversation with DH in the morning.

And this is where home information packs would have helped!

Ask the vendor outright, is it recent movement, has it always been like that, have they had any structural or building surveys carried out - the truth is you'd aways want your own, but it's useful to know/see theirs if they'll let you.

To me the alarm bells are "add-on" may be something as simple as inappropriate foundations or even foundations on the wrong footing for the garage - which yes technically is subsidence but not in the same way! Or just plain simple shoddy workmanship! Does the house exhibit any other signs of movement? Look for lines filled with white sealant, even if they've painted over it you'll see it.

And steer well clear of homebuyers reports - total waste of money. Get a building or structural survey.

Good luck - ps I am a chartered surveyor if you are desperate I can look at the particulars.

bekspolo thank you, I'm on android at mo so can't link but will do when I can get to a PC.

I saw lots of fine cracks in the internal plasterwork but they were fine and didn't seem to have any particular pattern.

I will call the agent tomorrow - house is currently tenanted and tenants did the viewing, so no direct contact with vendor today.

You're welcome!

Fine cracks could simply be that the plaster didn't "go-off" properly - I wouldn't be too alarmed.

Having checked again, the listing photos don't show the defects, so I haven't linked.

So, I spoke to the agent this morning. Apparently the vendors can't help as it's a family selling the house on behalf of their father's estate, they've let it via the EA for three years and so haven't been near the property. (The current tenants, who showed us around last night, have only been in for a year.)

EA suggested we might want to go to view again, with a local builder, who might be able to offer an opinion. Also suggested that the add-on garage foundations might not be up to the job, on the basis that they often aren't.

If we decided to pursue this (DH really wants to, I'm less convinced) would we be better off with a builder or a structural engineer, do you think?

Structural Engineer. Get on the phone to one and find out what they will charge to come and have a look.

I was thinking about this last night (because I walked away from a house that needed some structural work, and it turned out to be hardly anything, and it still bugs me now!) and if you like the house it really is worth checking out what will be involved. Its quite possible its very little that needs to be done.

If you personally know and trust a builder then take a builder - but given even I know very few good reliable trusty builders I'd suggest either a building survey or a structural survey. Latter will be more expensive but far more comprehensive.

Thank you both.

I think I was hoping for a cheap way to decide on whether it was worth risking our survey money (for a full structural/ building survey) before we considered an offer, as I think we'd be unlikely to stick with the purchase of a house with a structural problem tbh. I guess paying for an SE's time on a viewing might help us do that.

To the Yellow Pages, then to talk money....

Architect here - I strongly support the advice to contact a Structural / Civil Engineer if your main concern is the cracks.

Look for MIStructE and CEng in their qualifications.

If however you want a full bulding survey then use a Chartered Building Surveyor - MRICS or FRICS is their qualification.

Look for their contact centre at: www.rics.org or 0870 333 1600

Thank you Pendeen.

What's the difference between the two? (Sorry if that's a silly question.)

Structural Engineers are experts in the design of structures and are the best people to contact regarding specific issues building movement, structural failures and recommending remedial work such as underpining or brick reinforcements.

I couldn't find a simple definition on their website - this is the nearest Members

Chartered Building Surveyors are experts in identifying and diagnosing defects and problems in buildings such as damp and poor design or construction and then designing and managing remedial works. I know they will identify structural failure and often diagnose the underlying cause but generally turn to a structural engineer for advice when diagnosing serious faults or specifying remedial works. They are also trained and qualified in law - especially relating to building contracts, property, land, regulations, planning and safety.

The RICS have a free leaflet explaining subsidence here:

Subsidence

Hope this helps.

Thank you Pendeen.

I've just looked up some local SEs, and it seems that they mainly advertise full surveys - would an SE find it unusual to be asked to accompany us on a viewing (for a fee, obviously) for a less formal opinion in the first instance, before we decided whether to offer, IFSWIM?

Worth a 'phone call! :)

Have emailed a local one

I would have thought the onus on the vendors to provide structural survey? If you are concerned then other buyers will be. It seems a large expense to get a se's report on a house you haven't made an offer on yett.

If it's an add-on garage, and it's falling down, if it was me I'd make an allowance to demolish and rebuild. You local builder can make an estimate for that, it will be straightforward and simpler that trying to calculate ifs, buts and maybes for possible repairs and underpinning.

PigletJohn, thanks for that, we were thinking we might try that.

Trouble now is that the house has really grown on us over the weekend, so we suspect we might not be in the best frame of mind to play hardball!!

Agnes, we tried that line with the EA and got nowhere, unfortunately.

Thinking about it, PigletJohn's advice makes good sense and useful to have a builder's estimate as a bargaining tool.

It may be however that the subsidence is not progressive i.e. the building has stopped moving and minor repairs to the brickwork and roof might be possible.

A structural engineer might be willing to just visit with you for an hour's charge and then you will have reasoned advice 'on the spot.

I think we had the wrong problem here. We couldn't get an SE out today, but got the PILs to come with us on a second viewing (they have renovated two older properties before, and have seen their fair share of structural problems).

FIL's best guess is that the cracking I spotted, and most of the stuff I didn't, is minor for the opposite of all the reasons oreo points out above, and pointed out that the garage is a lean-to which isn't doing so any more, so probably not subsidence as such but more likely poor construction.

However.... The double glazing installation seems not to have included replacement lintels , and so there is a large triangular section of brickwork above two windows which has dropped. One of these sections has a slight bulge outwards. The plastering is pretty much all dodgy, and something odd has happened to put one of the bedroom doorways off square.

Common sense is telling us to walk away. Trouble is, we absolutely love the place now we've been back.

So... people of Mumsnet, how does this sound?

• We get a builder's quote for all the work we can see
• We use that as a bargaining tool to get the price as low as we can
• We make the offer subject to mortgage/ structural survey/ contract
• We get the work done while keeping our rental on for a month or two.

Anyone ever made this kind of thing work before? Also, will lenders generally go with this or not (our IFA warned us that he's struggled to get mortgages approved on structurally unsound properties recently).

Would very, very much value your opinions on this one.

Or, we could give up go and buy an identikit house on an endless estate, I guess....

What you propose sounds sensible to me, although I think I would rather have a wonky extension to deal with than that little list!!

I don't know what lenders will say about lending against structural problems, I know they can offer the mortgage in phases on some projects, releasing the money in stages as work is completed - but I don't know if that would apply in this situation, or if they even still do that.

Your best bet there is seeing an independant mortgage broker with knowlege of these situations who can point you in the direction of the best lender for this type of thing.

Make any offer subject to survey and get the most indepth structural survey going. You don't want the house that Jack built.

I would go for a house like this and stay in rental to get a home I love rather than an easy option of a modern estate or whatnot. Just follow your heart but listen to your head. You can only spend so much time and money on anything, and you have to be sensible about that .... but the reward is worth the effort and if it becomes a lovely home then that is worth it!

Yes, with hindsight I much preferred it when I thought we just had a garage/ utility to demolish and rebuild, too!!