Subsidence?

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OK, so our unerring ability to find the rubbish houses to view, apparently continues.

We went to see a ?50's build house this evening. Lovely house, semi-rural/ on edge of town, nice schools etc. etc. etc., BUT...

...I will swear that the add-on garage is falling away from the house. When you looked at the back of the house, the "flat" roof was sloping slightly down away from the house, and the door was not square compared to the ones in the main house. The roof line did not meet the main wall by a couple of inches, and the brickwork on the corresponding edge at the front is cracked stepwise through the mortar.

Also, in the utility room-bit which the garage is stuck to, there is a stepped crack through the brickwork mortar radiating at 45 degrees (I couldn't get into the other side of the wall to see if it went through as they'd stuck their enormous dog in there .)

So - don't suppose there happens to be a surveyor/ structural engineer/ someone who knows more than me out there, does there, to tell me whether I am panicking over nothing or not?

DH, of course, thinks I am nuts. He loves the house and is, I suspect, doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and singing loudly.

Hello Oreo, not yet - IFA is telling us he's had problems getting mortgages approved locally on properties with any kind of structural problem in past couple of months suddenly, and therefore very strongly advising that we make an offer based on a) the property already being 10% overvalued, in his opinion (he uses one of those automated valuation models to judge), then some more for the garage roof, then require them to sort the lintels and brickwork prior to exchange. . We are regrouping tonight to decide just how cheeky an offer we can bear to make!

We trust the IFA (used him before) so don't feel we can ignore his advice....

It's interesting about buying houses which have been underpinned - in our hilly area of heaving, shrinking London clay I would rather buy a house which has been underpinned and is being insured by a reputable company company which paid for it. Basically around here if it hasn't been underpinned, it probably should be!

Please re-read the earlier posts that recommend that you initiate a claim via the vendors buildings insurance.

We tried to buy a house recently that had had some structural work done due to movement caused by a collapsed drain. The original insurance company were legally obliged to cover us if we bought the house due to the previous claim.

Thanks FioLondon - since my earlier post this evening we've decided that our next move is to contact the agent to ask whether the vendor is prepared to at least deal with the two visible lintel failures before we make a final decision on what to offer, if at all.

Our IFA is working on this basis at the moment - he's telling us that locally (midlands area), even if there is no subsidence, dodgy lintels and failed brickwork would be enough to stop a mortgage approval. House prices are drifting downwards around here at the moment, and IFA is saying he's having even very good properties not perform at valuation survey, and mortgages being refused on the basis of what previously might have been considered minor/ fixable problems at structural survey/ SE reports.

His advice is, when it really comes down to it, he would try very hard to find us a product, but that we should be fully prepared to waste a month and lose our structural survey fees if we decide to do so, because he might not be able to.

Our best guess is that the house is 50s/ 60s build, on the basis of the tiled fireplace, the banister/ rail design, and that the PILs have one they know is by the same builder, about 6 miles away, built in a very similar style, in 1968.

The lintel problems you describe clearly applies to this one - we think the windows aren't more than a few years old, but the builder we got in to quote for the repair is convinced that they are supporting (or rather, not supporting) the brick layer of the walls above.

FWIW - if the vendors fix all this, we'll make them an offer! Following long discussion with IFA today he's confident we'd be OK with insurance later. Just not in the property's current state....

Hairy, our googling research leads us to believe that lintels not being replaced when UPVC windows are fitted isn't covered by standard buildings insurance policies, because it is the result of poor workmanship rather than subsidence.

Does anyone know whether this is true, or not?

TIA all (again!). I feel I ought to be paying you per word, now....

Its all very complicated isn't it! Looks like your decision may be made for you by the people in charge of the money.

From my limited experience with insurance companies, I would think that any damage caused to the property by poor workmanship would not be covered under a general policy - the home owner should have claimed under the builders insurance at the time the builder did the damage. However I may well be wrong, but that is my understanding of it.

Do you have your own home insurance policy booklet to hand I would look in mine but its in the black hole (cupboard under the stairs) and I can't face looking . That might give you an idea of what is generally covered, most basic policies are similar.

Hi again Oreo - that's my understanding, too.

www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/technical_notes/building-subsidence.htm#3 suggests it may be expressly excluded from the homeowner's buildings insurance policy.

Were the windows replaced by a firm still in existence? There should be a FENSA certificate that would at least give the company's name?

If so is worth chasing them?

Correct - as mentioned above - Thu 19-Apr-12 15:08:41

No point chasing the window company as their liability only extends to their customer. There may be a guarantee but unless it is insurance-backed it is unlikely to be worth anything.

To me, if the vendors haven't fixed the problems by now they will not so a very low ofer is probably the only or best bet.

When we bought our house the windows (UPVC) were still under 10 year guarantee and we had the FENSA certificate, and it was a guarantee which was transferable to us - we got a letter agreeing the transfer of the guarantee. HOwever that was for the windows themselves, although they were installed by the company.

re the cost of Buildings insurance - because of the underpinning we cannot shop around b ut the premium isn't noticably different to that of the houses before this one - we just have a high excess (£1k) for subsidence claims. Normal excess for everything else.

Glad to hear there was a guarantee in place.

So. Our conversation with the agent has been going something like this for the past 48 hours:

Us: "Is the vendor prepared to fix the problems with the lintels and brickwork?"
Agent: "What problems?"
"The one causing all the diagonal cracks and bulges."

"We're not prepared to talk about that until there's an offer on the table."
"We're not going to offer on a property with unresolved structural problems as our IFA thinks we'll be wasting our time/ money and the vendors'."
"The vendor might take an offer based on you doing the work yourselves."
"But then we risk not getting a mortgage."

Long pause. "The vendor wants to sell as is. How much did your builder's quote come in for?"
"It's irrelevant if we can't get a mortgage."

"So, you want your bread buttered on both sides, do you?"

Agent: "The vendor will fix the problem with the rear window."
Us: "What about the same problems on the side wall?"
"What problems on the side wall?"

Hmmm. Do you really want this house?

If you do offer unbelievably low.

If I were you - and going ahead with an offer I would be wary of letting the vendors fix the problems. When there is something important to do I like to know its been done properly. People who have let a property suffer poor workmanship and/or not provided adequate upkeep are not suddenly going to do the best job in the world now. And if they are selling for an estate then they are going to do as cheap a job as they can.

And the agent sounds like a tit. I know they are there to get the best price for the vendor but pretending there are no problems when there are is just crap. They either don't know what it is they are selling or they are misrepresenting the property....Might be worth saying that to the agent next time you speak to them and see if they have a smart answer to that

Oreo, the agent truly is a tit.

OTOH I do wonder if the vendors have no idea of how big a problem they have on their hands. Why on earth would you fit a new kitchen last year but not fix your wobbly external walls?

Though I think the penny may have dropped in the agent's office that they're trying to sell a really crumbly property, as Mr Tit was positively oily in the last conversation of the day, today, whereas before he spoke to me as though I were a child....

All this after he watched my FIL stomping all over the property and pointing out every last little defect he could see, in the loudest voice I have ever heard him use. (Bless him .) It's not like we've not given the bloke any clue of what we've been thinking, all this time!

No DH at home tonight - difficult decision-making conversations tomorrow evening, I think.

The vendors might not know how bad it is - but they should! Hopefully it is ignorance and not dressing up a crumbling wreck with a new kitchen in a bid to mislead.

Even if you decide against the house other prospective buyers are going to flag the same issues, or if they miss them then a survey will - even a basic survey will flag something is wrong. So they are going to have to sell the house at a low price.

If you offer - stay low. They may well turn you down which might be a blessing in disguise, but I would think that they may later come back to you as they will struggle to attract an offer let alone get a sale through.

Are we allowed a sneaky peak at the house on rightmove? I'm very nosey interested about these things

Sorry, as much as I would love to share, a link would very likely out me - seriously, I have wittered on about this house so much at work, this past week!! (Mainly while getting recommendations for local builders, I hasten to add - I save my major wittering for MN, obviously.)

Not sure what to do. It's a nice house but I don't want to buy a money pit. DH still loves it, though.

Thats ok I understand

Money - and the getting of it is going to be the crux of the decision I think - its a tough one!

It is. The question we have to settle is, I think, how much time and money we are prepared to risk while we find out if we can get the money, IYSWIM.

We are viewing a box on an estate on Saturday, just in case! (To be fair, it looks like a nice box, and it is undoubtedly a nice estate....)

FWIW I agree with the suggestion that you make a very low offer so that at least the vendors have a 'banker' to which they may return if sufficiently desperate.

Stranger things have happened

They can ony say "no."

Thanks Pandeen, we're still dithering as no further news from agent today on the side wall. If we do offer it is going to be a low offer. Currently debating just how low with DH!

Hello all again (I really should be paying you by the hour now).

Can you settle a query for me? DH went to see FIL yesterday afternoon, and they talked about this house.

FIL is adamant that the missing lintels and brickwork damage aren't "structural" issues.

Er, is that possible?

FIL is, BTW and IMO, wearing rose-tinted glasses about this because he has also fallen for the house, and it is only a few miles down the road from them....

Erm they support the structure of the house .

Now you have said it I am of course questioning my knowledge, but as far as I'm aware they are structural. Certainly the putting in and removing of them is structural work.

If the house has been altered and perhaps had an rsj or other structural support in place of the lintels, then they may not be, but I'm guessing thats not the case!

Wasn't it FIL who pointed this out in the first place? Bless him, he sounds like my DP, will flag problems then fall in love with something, declare it all sound and any problems figments of my imagination and then expect me to fix it.