Subsidence?

[Springforward]

OK, so our unerring ability to find the rubbish houses to view, apparently continues.

We went to see a ?50's build house this evening. Lovely house, semi-rural/ on edge of town, nice schools etc. etc. etc., BUT...

...I will swear that the add-on garage is falling away from the house. When you looked at the back of the house, the "flat" roof was sloping slightly down away from the house, and the door was not square compared to the ones in the main house. The roof line did not meet the main wall by a couple of inches, and the brickwork on the corresponding edge at the front is cracked stepwise through the mortar.

Also, in the utility room-bit which the garage is stuck to, there is a stepped crack through the brickwork mortar radiating at 45 degrees (I couldn't get into the other side of the wall to see if it went through as they'd stuck their enormous dog in there .)

So - don't suppose there happens to be a surveyor/ structural engineer/ someone who knows more than me out there, does there, to tell me whether I am panicking over nothing or not?

DH, of course, thinks I am nuts. He loves the house and is, I suspect, doing the equivalent of sticking his fingers in his ears and singing loudly.

I think the real decision will come when you know how much work and money is required, and of course if the vendor will sell at a low enough price to enable you to do it.

Provided you can afford to stay where you are and have the work done before you move in it shouldn't be too traumatic well in theory

Do people have trouble insuring properties which have had structural repairs?

hi OP, we had a similar problem. we offered on a house and then found out that it had been underpinned and there was no paperwork so we would not get insurance for it. we had to get a SE out and do a report and then we got insurance from Aviva who were brilliant. we got the all clear but if it starts to subside then we get it covered on teh insurance and they have charged us a normal amount .

Marilyn, thanks for that - so did you get that sorted because of the SE's report, then? And if it went again, Aviva would cover it, is that right?

I guess that would all be dealt with prior to exchange?

Having read that little list I think you definitely need professional advice asap i.e. a full building survey.

If your mortgage company offers the option of a building survey as an addition to the valuation then that may be the cheapest way otherwise contact the RICS and ask for details of local chartered building surveyors.

Pendeen, we will if we offer.

Tomorrow DH is taking a builder to the property to get a ballpark quote on what we can see now, to use in the negotiation.

It would be so much easier to walk away, but we can see what it could be, if we have the funds....

Are we missing a trick here - won't this kind of stuff be covered on the vendor's buildings insurance?

Well it should be, and you can ask for a sale to be made subject to these things being repaired and properly signed off/certified.

It depends on how much the vendors want to do, I think you said it is being sold as part of an estate - so they may not want/or have time to do this - in which case they are selling the house as is and must be reasonable and accept a fair price accounting for the work. Or they might want to do the work, but if they did I would expect them to want a premium for the property.

I would think that with it being part of an estate though they will probably want to sell as is. When my DF died we had to sell his house quickly in order to pay the inheritance tax. His house was fine, but had it needed repair we would have had to sell as it was in order to get the money in hand to meet the deadline IYSWIM.

Did DH take a builder today? What did he say?

Agent got viewing times mixed up , we're going tomorrow instead. The waiting is killing me!!

We are contemplating offering one figure if they do the work, another if we have to. What do you think?

The vendors building insurers need to be notified. The vendor needs to set up a claim and that claim can be transferred to you, they need to let their insurer know that they are intending to sell the property. If you buy the house without going through the correct channels it is very unlikely that anyone will insure you.

You need confirmation that the vendors insurers will accept the claim. They need to contact their insurers and their insurer will send a structural engineer to investigate.

I think thats fine, but I honestly think they will be selling it as it is. So make sure you offer as low as you can get away with!

Take off the expected cost of the work, don't forget to allow a generous contingency fund - I have done alot of work to properties and not once has it come in on budget! Make the offer subject to survey.

Get a very good structural survey, and if it flags up something else then go back with a lower offer.

You and DH need to sit down with a cool head and decide how much you are prepared to pay for this house - well before you start putting offers in and getting carried away. Are you prepared to pay in total a bit more than the houses current value? Obviously don't go mad but if this really is a dream home then it might be worth it. That entirely depends on your finances and future plans of course, but have a good think, set a limit. With it being an estate lets work on the theory that they have to sell the house, even if they initially turn you down they might come back.

Also I think these red flags will scare most people away from buying this house so competition shouldn't be too fierce. I also could be completely wrong on this front .

Last point I think I should mention is when talking to the builder ask about phasing the work.

Get a price for all the work at once, and then ask him if it could be done over a period of time and a breakdown of the cost of each section.

e.g The lintles and work to make the house structurally sound must be done asap, but you could wait to re plaster, perhaps knock the garage down the year after etc

I bought a house which had had some subsidence and been underpinned.
It sounds as if your problem may not be subsidence, but do get a proper structural survey / structural engineer to do a report and then get costings based on that. Don't just rely on the builder.

And you do need to ensure before you exchange that you can get buildings cover. We had to continue cover with the same insurers who carried out the work to the foundations, so couldn't shop around.

If the vendors could have claimed there must be a reason why then haven't.

Poor construction is not covered by insurance so that is probably the reason.

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OK, so the builder has gone home now. He's promised the quote in writing by Monday. We are sooooooo phoning him tomorrow for us to read it out over the phone!!

He thinks the lintels weren't replaced when the windows were done and are causing the wall to bulge. He's gone right over all the other windows too.

I really want this house now.

Ooh fingers crossed that its not too bad! What did he say about the extension? Does he think that needs to come down?

It is very exciting, and thats not a bad thing - if you do decide to go for it then that excitment will carry you over the wait and stress

He thinks the foundation is probably OK and that he might be able to save the garage by replacing the roof and the top bricks, and tying it back to the main building.

On a slightly less positive note, he thinks the bulging wall is probably quite close to collapsing....

This morning I am alarmed to note that I have cold feet about the whole thing. A box on an estate just wouldn't carry the same risk. Hard work, this house buying, isn't it?

It does sound like this particular house is hard work yes.

Well if you buy a box on an estate, there will be a point when you sit there thinking - "We should have made that bit more effort and had a lovely house, this is so dull".

If you buy this house I can guarantee there will be several points when you say "What the hell were we thinking, why on earth did we not buy a box on an estate and have an easy life"

Wait and see how you feel when the money talk starts - that should plunge you into a decision one way or another.

Thanks for the advice, both - I'll keep you posted!

Whatever happens with the builder, I would not go ahead without a full survey and a structural engineers report. And I would be surprised if you could get a mortgage on the say so of a builder, without a professional surveyors report. Remember, from a mortgage lender's point of view a professional of that nature has professional indemnity insurance to back up the fact that they are qualified to give an opinion. A builder will be very experienced, but is not professionally qualified to give such an opinion, afaik.

With a house that has obviously been tampered with by cowboys you may find that there is work that has ben done that may have needed Building Regs approval and hasn't, that should show up in the searches.

I think it's fine buying properties that need work and are more complicated to buy - I'm happy we stuck with our house purchase through 4 months of agonies around the underpinning etc. It was horrible at the time but worth it over the last 5 years and counting. But you have to bear in mind your investment in all the reports etc.

Thanks for the advice Blu, if we decide to pursue this we will do - I think we just wanted a ballpark figure to start negotiations with, at this stage.

Still waiting....

OK, so we got the quote, and we could make it work if the vendors knock, er, 10% off the asking price.

Is that realistic, do you think?

Of course, if buildings survey shows up more problems, we'd have to negotiate down again.

Agent closed until Monday....

More than realistic. An offer 10% below asking would be reasonable in this current market (unless you are somewhere very desirable) on any purchse.

Is 10% enough? Have you allowed for the builders etimate to go over by 50%? Or at least a fair bit?

How is the house priced now? Is it in line with similar properties or is it already cheaper? Either way you need to offer low enough to have a contingency. They can only say yes or no!

Good luck

Hows it going Spring? Did you speak to the agent today? Hope all is well!