To think a lot of people who agree with VAT on school fees…

[geeenuoe]

Actually don’t truly understand that to most sending their kids to these schools, it is a massive, massive struggle already.

There seems to be a mentality that if you can afford 20k a year then you’re already comfortable so sod it, you should find more cash now for vat … but do people in general not understand that some families re mortgage their homes to pay these fees? Yes there’s mega wealthy people but there’s many, many more who are not.

On the one hand we hear a good education is a luxury so VAT must be applied, then on the other we are told a good education is a right for all. So… why are we taking away that good education from those who already have it? Why is the focus not on sorting out the state sector properly? We all know the vat won’t fix the state sector. It may help in a tiny way in ad hoc circumstances but there’s so so so much more that needs to be done to state schools to make them ever match what the private sector offers.

I simply don’t get this mentality that those making sacrifices must make more when it comes to bloody education. I say this as someone who can’t afford the fees but if I could I absolutely would… and I also acknowledge that I am unwilling to go to some lengths that others will to pay it. I respect the choice of others to make such sacrifices and have no desire to make it harder and more inaccessible for the masses to access it. Similarly, I know plenty of people driving fancy cars and spending loads on holidays… they’ve chosen that over school fees. And those who have spend loads getting into a postcode of a decent state school… should they be paying enhanced tax on their house purchase?

Why do most people think those who pay schools fees are doing so with great ease? Is it basically because they don’t personally know people paying this so accept the media narrative that it’s the mega rich only?

And then there are those countries with really good sprinkler systems which suddenly look really attractive options for those people who are really into fire safety!

I have no skin in the game: my DS goes to an independent specialist school funded by the LA. But I have been through the shitshow that passes for an EHCP process in recent years, and the additional SEN children from private schools alone should kick this policy into the (very) long grass. It already takes years for SEN children to be placed in a school that can meet their needs, because LA’s have no budgets and there are not enough specialist places to go round. That scarce resource is going to be diluted even further. Where do people expect these SEN children to go? I think we can all expect more “appalled that an autistic child is allowed to disrupt DC’s lessons” Mumsnet threads.

The money raised by charging VAT on private school fees will be used to benefit children in state schools so it's also the business of anyone who has a child in a state school.

You know this is a divisive and polarising issue on both sides of the debate so you can't prevent people who don't have kids in private school from posting, or tell them that they are peculiar just because they disagree with you.

There will be no money raised by this.

The policy will probably ultimately cost tax payers money.

The policy will be of no benefit to children in state schools and in fact may be detrimental.

So if you are a state school parent and opposing the policy I can fully understand.

Otherwise it's really not your business.

I've already said I think specialist SEN schools should be excluded from this, but I still think you're reaching a bit with some of that, although it's an interesting analogy.

What if one of the effects of people legitimately paying for sprinklers is that the fire brigade is less well funded and more poor people die in fires than would do if nobody did that? And some people with sprinklers complain about how they're paying for fire protection twice and it's not their job to care about other people dying in fires who haven't "worked hard" and "made sacrifices" to get sprinklers?

Take account of people with the sprinklers not tending to vote to fund the fire service well but rather tending to vote for tax cuts because they don't need that service any more, and you've got a context a bit more parallel to the education one.

Regardless of whether this particular VAT policy vs generally more taxation of wealth is the answer, the richest people having no reason to care about a public service is not as straightforward a net benefit to society as all that.

I thought the fire sprinkler analogy was pretty good actually.

Just like with education, the people with sprinklers still have an incentive to fund the fire service because fires spread. And because it makes their environment worse if lots of houses around them have burnt down.

There's no evidence that sprinkler-owners vote for less funding.

Although it is certainly true that society is based on reciprocal support. If society makes it clear that they despise the sprinkler-owners and their fire-free homes, and wish harm on them (even as far as being willing for their own homes to burn in order to hurt them) then you can't be surprised when sprinkler owners care less than they did, and are less willing than they were to pay into general funds for a society which is denouncing and othering them, even whilst taking their money.

The complaining about paying for the fire service twice only started when the non-sprinkler owners started complaining how selfish sprinkler-owners were for buying sprinklers... and demanding a third payment towards the fire service only for sprinkler-owners.

I mean wtf?! You expect us to pay more towards a service because we don't use it??

If your dc is at a £20k a year private school and you can’t afford that to become at £24k a year private school, then you can either look to move to the state sector or move to a cheaper private school. Other private schools are able to offer what is considered to be a better education than state schooling for considerably less than £20k a year. Why aren’t more parents questioning why fees have got so high in the first place?

state schools get around £5.5k per child. If private schools are routinely charging 3 or 4 times that amount, why aren’t more parents talking about where their money is going and why aren’t they swallowing the VAT rise in cuts?

The biggest expense in any school is teaching costs - how small a group are private school children being taught in? 7 a class? 10? 15? If they are being taught 15 in a class, so half the state numbers, why 4 times the funding needed? Where is the rest going and is it really adding value?

Private school fees have gone up and up over the last 20 years, far outstripping inflation. There hasn’t been any sort of public discussion around why and if this is a good thing. Many middle class people have been priced out without any question about if it’s useful or not to society to make sure private schooling is an option to groups of middle class people who traditionally would have used private schools.

Now suddenly it’s not the schools who are pricing out the next level up of income level, it’s a problem.

I agree the analogy is interesting - but it is nonsense in my opinion. And I agree with the fundamental idea that those who have the most money should be contributing more. It's also disappointing that people on the whole, not everyone granted, equates working hard with wealth. Many many people work very hard and get paid hardly anything....and certainly not enough to ever consider private school.

I still can't get my head round people who pay for private school aren't questioning why the fees have gone up year after year - where is that money going? Certainly the teachers pay in private schools - maybe that should be looked at, and people should be pushing for the schools to absorb the VAT when it's introduced.

Those who have the most money already are contributing more. That's how our progressive tax system works.

Why should those private school parents contribute more towards state schools than people wealthier than them who are actually using them? That makes no sense.

And for any private school which your child is not attending, it is absolutely none of your business what the fees are and whether they've gone up. It's certainly not a matter for "public discussion around why and if this is a good thing."

It is quite unreasonable to assume that only private schools deliver a good education! Selective schools, either private or state run, do well by their bright pupils. Non-selective schools cater for the less able, and the only real advantage private schools have is smaller class sizes.

Don’t talk nonsense. If you private schools to keep going they need to be accessible hence the costs are up for debate

Are you thinking of sending yoir child to a private school? Have they been open to debating the fees with you? If so, I'd be really interested to know which one.

😂 it maybe on paper progressive but not enough…

I think you may have misunderstood my post. I’m saying that in general fees have risen. My sister in law went to a private school, her parents professions, civil servant and teacher. I know hardly any teachers or middle level civil servants who without family help can afford private schools now!

Oh you've got no argument from me that the fees have priced out the sorts of families who used to be able to afford private school and that is to their detriment.

I understand that recent increases are due in some part to a change in the teachers pension arrangements but don't know details.

if fee increases have priced out families already, then that’s definitely something it’s reasonable for the community a private school sits in to query.

if everyone else is being told vat can’t be added to private school fees because it will price out families who can only just afford the fees, then why the fees have risen far beyond inflation is a reasonable question to ask.

I think it's you who is talking nonsense.

Why do you think the public has any say at all on something they pay £0 towards?

In exactly the same way, you wouldn't expect any say on what features are worthwhile in a sprinkler system. It's not you buying it.

The only thing which concerns you is that people buying themselves sprinklers saves the UK money, since the fire service has fewer fires to put out.

If adding VAT to sprinklers raises less money than the cost to the UK of the extra fires from people not buying them due to the higher price, then it's a stupid policy.

The only reason it's relevant to you which families are being priced out is that it would help you to estimate how many extra fires the fire service will have to put out due to people not buying sprinklers, and analyse whether the cost of those extra fires will be higher than the extra VAT raised.

Analysis which Labour have refused to do.

Ah, there you go …you are defaulting to lies parents of private schooled kids tell themselves in their isolated bubbles.

i have 2 young grown up ds, one even includes an august baby that seems to cause panic on MN🤦‍♀️. Both state educated. Not selective. Not even particularly exclusive catchments- up north

one has history degree, got into civil service fast track as a graduate intake, and has a very good well paid career in London.,the other has a masters, does a very specialised scientific role.
both have wide circle of friends, never did drugs, don’t even have a tatoo 🤷🏼‍♀️🤣🤣, and are generally decent well rounded humans that have mixed with all classes in this country, and wide diversity. They’ve got here own homes, albeit renting while they save deposit

in meantime my god daughters, educated in one of most exclusive expensive boarding school, did drugs at school, came out of education with naff degrees and are still living at home in temporary jobs searchin* for “ their thing” 🤦‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️. Not the only kids of parents I know in same boat

money does not buy you the best educational and social outcomes for your kids. Kids will do well with strong parental support in most schools. But decades of Tory under funding, lack of interest and PR campaign against state schools don’t help. Sending kids of wealthier ( you ARE wealthy) to state schools will improve provision over years. Yes, there are a few bad schools where kids get in a mess, but kids get in messes in expensive private schools too.

tough shit Op frankly. You want to pay money for something you and your kids don’t actually NEED, but just want, then pay bloody VAT on it just like other frivolous spending on luxuries.

You can't tell people on a thread about private school fees that the fees that are charged and whether they have gone up are none of their business.

The IFS has said that private school fees have risen by 20% in real terms since 2010. This must have priced some families out of sending their children to private school. There has been no outcry about that.

It is reasonable for people to ask why the schools can't absorb these VAT costs so that they aren't passed on to the parents.

Irrelevant anecdotes.

It doesn't matter why people are making the choices they do.

When the VAT brings in less money than it costs the state to educate the extra children, then everyone in the state system will be worse off.