Another state primary v private pre-prep qn (I can hear the groans already - sorry!)

[thegruffalosmum]

Dd is at a state primary which is ok. It's a happy school. She's doing fine. She is only in reception so it's early days.

But I can't help thinking we are giving her a poorer deal compared to the sort of schools some of her friends attend. (Before I continue, please note, we only have one dc and school fees are not an issue at all so please cast the cost aside for the sake of this question.)

She has 30 in her class, the pre-prep has 14 - and at least the same number of staff. Dd's reading book gets changed now and then, theirs get changed frequently. They get listened to reading every day. She gets heard ooh once so far since starting school in Sept (I know she's only in reception but she could read before she started and is keen so surely someone could sit with her for 15 mins a couple of times a week?)

I know half of Mn think this about their dc but she is very bright. Not a genius but very bright. Would a smaller class be better for her later on, especially after reception and year 1 when things get a little less play based?

She also likes structure and routine and the school she is at is quite chaotic at times whereas a smaller class might be a bit more ordered. I would hate a hothouse type school but the pace is kind of slow (not just talking about reception as I know that is playing and learning to be at school/ socialising).

Do smaller classes make a big difference?

If money was not an issue would you switch?

Class Size Research Project

what an interesting report. haven't read it all but seems like alot of research has gone into it. by what i can see they seem to like classes of around 17-23. my mum worked with reception and year 1's for 20 odd years before retiring this easter and she often said 14 was to little and 30 to many. she liked the 17-23 amount good. just because you send them to private school doesn't mean the children will be better. i've talked to a teacher before and she said that in some schools you get kids that disturb the class in pivate schools and they don't want to learn as there daddies earn enough for them never to have to work so why should they bother with schools. i would be looking to send my boys to private schooling for secondary school. we have an excellent primary school so are saving for secondary education where we feel it is more important

Yes and Yes.
Smaller classes of course make a difference. When DS1 (now 16) was due to start reception and I looked at our local school, they had 3 reception classes, each with 30+ kids which were open plan and linked by archways. So basically around 100 4 year olds in a very small space. He would have been lost there so we put him in a private prep school. The first year he had 11/12 in his class and although class sizes varied over the years, it was never more than around 14. In his final year (year 8) there were 8 in his class. He thrived and has continued to do so and now has achieved a scholarship into a sixth form college.
I'm not saying he would have got a 'lesser' or poorer quality education at the state school, we will never know but I think the smaller class sizes allowed a then shy boy to thrive.

If you can afford it (and please make sure you can ensure it ALL the way through, not just the early years) then do it. Good luck

MY DS has gone from a state school with 30 in a class to another state school with 23 in (2 year groups)

and i have to say i definately think the smaller classes are the way to go - not sure about the private element

We have moved to a small village hence the smaller school and i wouldnt consider private over the school he is in.

He is much much happier - the difference is quite amazing - he can no longer "hide" in the class and there doesnt seem quite as many "disruptive" boys to join in with

that sounds really good racmac Ideally that is what we would do, move to the country where there are smaller schools and hence smaller classes. We are abroad at the moment so its not an issue at this time but it will be in a year or so for DC3 and 4.
Glad it has worked out for you

Does the private school only have one class per year?
Do they get smaller as you go up the years?

The prep school my eldest DC went to had two classes per year. It really does vary ref numbers but I think they did go down slightly as the fees increased as they went higher up the school. Also, the prep school was until age 13 and a lot left at age 11 so the last two years had much smaller clsses.

It will really vary from school to school though.

Not sure if the pre-prep you're talking about is mixed or single sex.

But one thing to think about in a mixed sex environment is whether say, 7-8 girls is going to provide the friendship pool from which your daughter is going to happily make friends.

Dd went through a mixed pre-prep and prep and we have no regrets on the whole, but there were always only 5-7 girls in her class and she did struggle on the friendships side.

She's now in an independent secondary in a class of 21 - all girls - and has found several girls she really gets on well with.

I'd say if your dd is confident socially, a smaller pool of girls would probably be fine.

Good luck with your decision.

Why not try getting more involved in the school -- volunteer to listen to children reading, for example?

There are two private options and I have considered pre-prep before dd started school (we had a place and paid the deposit but then decided to give the state primary a go) so I am fairly aware of the classes being too small issues etc which are very good points.

Pre-prep no.1 has two classes per year and they do socialise beyond their class a bit.

Pre-prep no.2 has classes slightly larger but only 1 class per year.

oregonion - I work so can't do that but I do help with other things e.g. PTA stuff.

Fundamentally I suppose the question is, if all other things were equal (e.g. distance from home to school, money were no object etc.), are we short changing/ not doing our best for her by sending her to a school with larger classes and a pace and stage of learning that doesn't match hers as well as it could at the pre-prep?

I have noticed that the smaller classes the children tend to mix across the classes. So my DS plays with boys in YR 5 or 6 - he really doesnt care (as long as they like football!)

I think that where the school is bigger the children tend to mix with just their own class.

In life we are friends with all different ages so I think its a good thing

In your position I would switch.My personal thoughts are that to provide good quality play based learning a class can't be too big.

I am currently thinking why would I let her have a good enough education when she could have a great education (as much as I can ever know that it's great at the pre -preps in advance - would do my best to find out).

Sorry no time to read whole thread, but if money is no object I would, IIWY, look at as many schools as are practicable distance-wise and choose the best for your DD - and remember that as a paying customer you have the right to be picky . From what I have seen of DS vs. his state school friends at beavers calm, order, and one to one attention are definitely plus points for smaller-classed private schools.

what has changed since you made your choice to take the state school place and give up your deposit?

is it just hearing about the other school?
were you happy enough with the state school before?

(and one of the many things to consider in that decision is definitely balance of boys and girls in her year group - DS's year has not enough girls and it has been a struggle for a couple of them)

Is numbers your main concern as well as academic pace or have you considered other aspects too? I am not sure what your current school does with your DD, but for a bright child there is a lot more at this age than academic achievement - and this is where you could also look closely? I have said before on these threads that in my DD's school she is being exposed to so many different experiences, such as puppet theatre, drama, music and then of course there are socialisation aspects, such as the way teachers encourage those too. If you feel the school is lacking in all those too and your DD spends lots of time doodling at school then it's a bad sign. If she is happy and engaged and comes back with loads of stuff then maybe give the school the benefit of the doubt? My DD for example is now really good at drawing as that is heavily encouraged. You can always change books for her at home and encourage her to read more or ask the teachers to speed the pace up. Sometimes they need a little nudging. Having said all that, it also depends what sort of child you have, like you say if she is quiet then she might need more pastoral care? I know at my DD's school for example there is 60 of them (two form) but they have 2 teachers, 4 teaching assistants and 2 volunteers. So also worth checking out whether there are volunteers/extra staff at the school that you might not necessarily be aware of.
Hope this helped you somewhat.
Emy x

It Always Depends On The Particular Child And The Particular Schools.

(Nearly did it in bold to but can't be arsed.)

I will now just cut and paste this on to everyone of these threads

All interesting points. Pag I agree but it's still very helpful to get people's views to apply to dd and inform my decision.

Eldon's question is a very good one....

We went to the state primary always thinking we'd give it a go and could always move her if it was disappointing. Also dh went to state primary and then a top selective school then Oxford so he is quite pro state and is always saying things like "well I did alright" and "it didn't do me any harm".

We had originally looked at a couple of pre-preps which were girls only and shortlisted one, so it was the state primary vs one of these.

The primary 'won' as it was closer to home and mixed. It has several "kids who could go private" types, lots of tutoring and great SATS but a mediocre ofsted. Kids do go to good senior schools.

We had not particularly considered these other two mixed pre-preps for assorted reasons and should have done. They are only a couple of minutes further to get to than the state primary but were off our radar screen as in a different borough.

I think also it's the reality of the fact that dd could be doing so much more at school (still including lots of playing) than she is and that the big classes mean there is really limited scope to do things at her level. In the two prepreps (both somewhat academic but not ultra hothouses) there would be lots of children at her reading level, working at the same level in maths etc. so when they are doing learning (hopefully in a playful way still) it would match where she is at better iyswim.

And finally, we always thought dd could make up for missing out on some of the preprep type activities like french and music after school but now she's started school I realise that I don't want her traisping from one class to the next every day and never having time to just play - yet at the same time she'd love to be doing french and music (they do it at the state primary but it's a quick lunchtime club for french and music isn't such a big thing there).

Sorry for the long post!

I wouldn't be happy with the reading. DD attends a state primary (reception) and is heard reading (and receives a new book) each week.

but that actually depends on the schools too.
My DD gets LOADS of activities within school time and/or under school supervision. But actually my friends DD is in a state school where they have a wide range of activities and clubs too.
Some preps offer activites etc butthey are not delivered well. The local top ranked prep was gleaming and lovley but had the most hideous atmosphere with the girls wandering around looking hassled and glum.

Go and look at them. It is rarely about stuff in princple but how it is delivered - including the atmosphere or vibe at any given school

Yes, you are right. Absolutely. You'll get fabulous experiences at a private school, none of the disruption that a class of 30 in a state school brings, and she'll be given almost one to one attention

This is pointless. You have decided. Money is not an option, so just do it. Nothing that anyone says will change your mind, now, will it? It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks - if you think you'll give her a great education by going private, then I don't believe that anyone else's state experiences will persuade you otherwise.

Another one to cut and paste to these threads....

I think that you've already made up your mind, haven't you?

Make sure that you choose the right prep though, as they are very varied.

You could probably move her after Christmas if there is space.

I truly haven't decided Paolo. It is a big decision to move a child who is happy at school. Why can't I ask questions about this without it descending into a trite State v private debate. Maybe I shouldn't have specified which sector the schools are in in the OP.

I don't for a moment think all state schools are mediocre and all privates great.

In fact the whole state v private thing on this thread could actually be totally ignored. Let's just think of them as different schools - one with bigger classes, one smaller. It's not relevant to my decision whether they are state or private.