Another state primary v private pre-prep qn (I can hear the groans already - sorry!)

[thegruffalosmum]

Dd is at a state primary which is ok. It's a happy school. She's doing fine. She is only in reception so it's early days.

But I can't help thinking we are giving her a poorer deal compared to the sort of schools some of her friends attend. (Before I continue, please note, we only have one dc and school fees are not an issue at all so please cast the cost aside for the sake of this question.)

She has 30 in her class, the pre-prep has 14 - and at least the same number of staff. Dd's reading book gets changed now and then, theirs get changed frequently. They get listened to reading every day. She gets heard ooh once so far since starting school in Sept (I know she's only in reception but she could read before she started and is keen so surely someone could sit with her for 15 mins a couple of times a week?)

I know half of Mn think this about their dc but she is very bright. Not a genius but very bright. Would a smaller class be better for her later on, especially after reception and year 1 when things get a little less play based?

She also likes structure and routine and the school she is at is quite chaotic at times whereas a smaller class might be a bit more ordered. I would hate a hothouse type school but the pace is kind of slow (not just talking about reception as I know that is playing and learning to be at school/ socialising).

Do smaller classes make a big difference?

If money was not an issue would you switch?

Alright then. . .I'd move my DC to the school with the smaller classes and better facilities. It's a no brainer, but then all three of mine are/have been at prep school and I am very, very happy with it.

I would say that if you have the money then definitely go for it - I doubt you'll regret it and there's nothing to stop you moving her back to the state sector for secondary school.

It really does depend on the school and your child. From the way you describe your dd and the description of the schools involved I would personally move her to the pre-pre.

My children have thrived in their pre-prep/prep school in a way I feel they would not have done in our local state primary.

However I would not consider any of the other preps in the area for various reasons. So in effect I chose the school, rather than the fact that it is private.

Nothing 'trite' about my post. It sounds as if you have made up your mind to move her from a 'good' level of education to a 'great' one, and you feel that a prep school with smaller class sizes is the way to go.

I don't think anything that anyone on here could say would "inform your decision", other than those who had similar great experiences at prep schools. If you feel that this causes the post to descend into a trite state v. private wrangle then that's your lookout, frankly.

I think I am in that direction but dh really isn't at all sure.
And it still plays on my mind as to whether the difference between good and great (or maybe mediocre and good??) really matters.

I personally think the difference is finding the school which lights up your DD and gets her bouncing into school full of enthusiasm - whatever that takes. For my DS, that is great teachers who take time to listen to him even though he is not good at pushing himself forward, an environment where it is cool to learn and to succeed, and lots of drama/music/sport. At primary level, that enthusiasm for school and for learning is paramount IMHO and if they lose it then it is hard/impossible to get back at senior level.

We have found that combination in a private school. I am sure others have found it in state schools. Also what works for your DC is going to be unique to them.

OP - I think you and DH need to look at all the possible options and see which one you can best imagine your DD thriving in - which should be easier now she is in school than it was before she started, IYSWIM.

"she could read before she started and is keen so surely someone could sit with her for 15 mins a couple of times a week"

Do the maths: 30 children in class X 30 mins listening to each child read per week = 15 hours.
That is why volunteer readers are so useful.

Hathor - or [devil's advocate] smaller classes and higher ratio's of TAs. DS's school's reception class has 24 children, 1 teacher & 2 full time TA's + borrowing of general shared resource. Every child gets to read every day.

OP, I have exactly the same dilemma and posted around a week ago on the education topic about this (You phrased your dilemma better than mine)

I'm not so much concerned about good versus "great" but dd1 is very shy, hasn't really made friends this term and I wonder if she'd thrive more in a smaller environment. Otoh, the private schools I'd consider are all a bit of a drive away whereas the state school is on our doorstep and as dd1 is not a morning person this makes a difference. Money is a bit more of an issue for us too as there's a younger dd to factor in, though that may just be me worrying needlessly

Anyway, no advice because I need it myself but I sympathise because I sway violently from one extreme to the other. Last week I was convinced private was the way to go, this week I am veering back to state.

The problem is neither school will be perfect and you will always beat yourself up about your decision. Good luck, will watch the thread with interest

are there spaces at the alternative schools?

I would worry about moving them mid year and the disruption, being the new kid etc

Would you consider waiting til the end of the year to move her?

To be honest, I think in Reception it isn't that important when they're moved - many schools have three intakes and so she might not be starting alone.

They tend to be quite resilient at this age as well.

I would think it would be easier to move mid-Reception than at the start of Y1, TBH.

Interesting point Stealth. Why? Are friendships more established by then? Tbh even if we did move her I wasn't thinking this until the end of reception but yes as another poster has said DH needs to be on board so there is a lot of talking to do IF this is the right thing.

Mrs Shackleton - my sympathies - it's so hard to know the right thing.

Agree that it is easier to assess a school once a dc has started school. I wish I'd known what to look for before when we were deciding.

If they're moved mid Reception then they are just absorbed into the class - they are all playing together all the time and most won't have firm friendship groups.

If you move them at the beginning of Y1, their friendship groups will be firmer, all the parents will know each other and the focus will be on getting to know the new routine, rather than the new girl.

IME, you wouldn't worry about them starting playgroup mid year, so why worry about Reception?

When all of mine started, we took them to play in their new class for the afternoon and saw how they affected the group dynamics/how easily they seemed to fit in. We also got to see the teacher in action with our DC which was nice.

I think it is definately about finding the right school for your child and if that is the prep school, then that is the one for you. If you can afford it, then go for it!

I am going through a similar problem. My DD is in the local 'ok' school, class of 30. I hate going there everyday and my DD is not very enthusiastic, but when she does want to go she seems to enjoy it. I chose it as other family members go there and it is after all our local school.

She already gets upset about going to school, so my fear is that she will get even more upset if she moves school!! My DD is in reception aswell.

She's only been in school a term, right? Very, very, very early days. Personally I would keep her where she is as you say she's happy and good state schools should meet the needs of most children, and certainly the bright who make up a good quarter of the population. However, you will not come across very much formal sit down and learn stuff till near the end of reception and into Y1 if the foundation stage is being followed well. A very good thing too, many would argue.

Ime/o, benefits of a good state school often include:

• meeting and playing with children from a wider range of backgrounds and abilities than they would otherwise
• greater access to the local community, as state schools tend to have priority access to places like libraries, swimming pools, art galleries, museums etc,
• the chance to have lots of local friends
• attending a school with a greater tolerance for quirkiness (not sure if your daughter is a quirky type but thought I'd mention it just in case)
• better knowledge of child/educational development, especially for early years teaching where there is commitment to a play based curriculum. Those friends' children who are reading to teachers all day everyday are very possibly being taught in a much more formal environment than your daughter and, if this is so, I think they are losing out, not her.
• a less poncy uniform
• a commitment to a more rounded education, valuing every child's talents/good qualities and developing their weaker areas.

However, none of this should be at the expense of academic learning. Rather it should enhance it.

I would certainly talk to her teacher about the reading- are you absolutely sure it's only been the once that she's had reading practice? Sounds like laxness rather than a state school thing. I think the smaller classes question is often a red herring- there are usually plenty of adults in the lower year groups and the teacher should be marshalling her troops to ensure she's keeping regular tabs on all children's progress and that they are all getting plenty of attention. Again, it might be that they are working towards doing more formal learning later in the year but it's worth checking.

So, in short, I would keep her where she is and have a word with her teacher. If it later becomes clear that the school is utterly shite that's another thing, but it sounds worth giving it a proper chance as your daughter is happy there.

I wouldn't move her if she's thriving and happy - not worth the potential disruption

If she's not doing so well (like my dd ), then yes absolutely

Don't get in a tizz about what friends' dcs are doing. Easier said than done, I know

I would look very carefully at the girl/boy ratio in the year group and school if you are thinking of mixed pre-prep. I wouldn't send my DD to a private school with more than 50% boys unless the DD in question is a tom boy.

Skegness you talk much sense. I think I couldn't realistically leave now as I haven't given it a chance.

Funnily enough the uniform there is really formal there - pinafore shirt and tie even in reception. And local friends not really an issue as no different to the pre-preps as the state school has a huge catchment across a number of villages and no others from our village.

Afaik there are no other children at a similar reading level based on what the teacher said. There is another girl who is but she is leaving at Easter.

Almost certain about the listening to her read thing - only one person ever written a note in her reading record and that was when a volunteer was in. None of the others have had reading books so they are not at that stage afaik. Starting reading books next term so maybe they'll do reading with the teachers then more?

OK so if I'm going to talk to the teacher, what would I say so I don't sound pushy and poncy?

The research suggests the key difference is made by the pedagogy - the teaching. The return to educational outcomes from smaller class sizes is small. It helps but the return on the investment is small.

That's not to say that prep schools use it as a differentiator

Don't worry that there is no-one at her reading level, it is only the end of the first term.
There will be bright children in her class (because you do get them in state schools you know )who although they haven't learnt to read before starting school, will zoom ahead once they do start reading, and possible even overtake your dd.
And then there will be those who don't 'get' reading until year 1 or even later, but who when they do, again zoom ahead becasue they're bright.

Very true Hototter.
See, despite this being a state v private thread it has been really helpful! I can definitely see I need to give the teacher more of a chance to meet her needs. I'm not naive and don't expect the world to revolve around dd, but even if it's learning through play and a class of 30, I think she should still learn a little academically with reading etc. as well as all the other stuff e.g. social skills, being at school, fun play.

People get very obsessed by their children not being read with enough at state schools but my dd reads to a teacher once a week. Plus, we are expected to read with her at home.

Also, a bright child who finds reading easy doens't really need all this help anyway...we are a bit slack about reading at home and yet her reading improves each week.

(And, looking at the mumsnet threads, she is well ahead of most children of her age, although not the best reader in her class)

Saying all that, I would be a bit cross if there was only one comment in the book after a whole term.

Ask the teacher why? Perhaps, that is the policy at the school (in which case fair enough) but if it is due to disorganisation, then not so good!

I don't know the policy really tbh. I will ask next term.

I am about 99% sure there is only one comment because she has only been heard reading once.

The only time she read a book this term was when there was someone in who isn't normally there i.e. an extra pair of hands which suggests to me it is a lack of staff/ time/ organisation thing.

It might all change next term though when the majority of the class start on books.

I think one term in it's fair for me to ask if someone can listen to him reading once a week?

Doh her not him. Am thinking of ds there who is a baby and certainly won't be reading anything for several years!!