INFANT CLASS SIZE PREJUDICE- YOU CAN WIN!

[custardpants]

I have just won an appeal and overcome the class size prejudice rule, based on inaccuracies on behalf of the council. i suggest to anyone out there, keep fighting you can win and get in contact with your local MP who can also work with you and give you information on how to approach these things. County Councils will tell you there is no point appealing and will say no appeals get upheld on the infant class size prejudice rule. please keep hope, if you have the right information and tackle in the right way you CAN win. I WANTED TO MAKE OTHER PARENTS AWARE THAT IT IS NOT A POINTLESS BATTLE- YOU CAN BEAT THE ADMISSIONS AUTHORITY AS QUITE OFTEN THEY DO NOT IMPLEMENT THE ADMISSION ARRANGEMENTS CORRECTLY, PARENTS ARE NOT GIVEN THIS INFORMATION SO PLEASE REQUEST FROM YOUR LOCAL MP WHO CAN HELP YOU!

I think those days are long gone Katie, parents are savy customers in a material world and vote with their feet if they don't feel they are getting value for money.

Those days are not long gone! My local private school, which is one of the top in the country, has not one PGCE on its staff. That said, they teach small classes of selected, able and motivated girls. No wonder they get good results. It 'aint rocket science.

Ok so are we saying the PSCE is over rated ?

*PGCE sorry

Hi , Congratulations for winning your appeal. I am also appealing for my son's addmission. HE was refused addmission based on distance while my house is just a stone throw away. from the school. We founf that the school entry points used in this instance are incorrect and that they are using alley way as one of the entry points which is not a safe route.

Please can you suggest how we could go abouth this ........

My cousin has been teaching Geography at a 'well though of' independant school this last term and her PGCE doesn't even start til september !
I think many parents wouldn't even think to ask if the teachers have qualified teacher status

nappyaddict "melissa i thought with mixed year groups they normally have the higher ability children from the lower year and the lower ability children from the higher year so the difference between them isn't too great? that's what they do round here i think but they have an intake of 45 so they would have a year 1 class of 30, a year two class of 30 and a mixed year 1/2 class of 30. "

One would think this would be the case...but unfortunately it is one of those cases where this situation would make too much sense There was a lot of outside reasons as to why this class ended up as they are...high 2's with very low 1's. We too have an intake of 45, but instead of having some straight year groups, and one mixed as you have described, all of ours are mixed, except reception.

"I often say to my kids, when they are all talking at me at once, or they all want something at the same time 'there is only one of me and three of you.' And I'm only finding clean underwear or lost lego. Not teaching them the Victorians, or spellings or the Solar System, as my DD's teacher has to do, (on his own), to a class of 33 year twos and threes (all of them, bottom to top). "

Here, here merrylegs...something teachers deal with each and everyday!

Does that mean you end up with 3 mixed classes per 2 year groups iyswim?

On the subject of class sizes, I was given to understand that the LEA/CC sets them in multiples of 15 and it is up to the discretion of the school, if they accept numbers above this, even if appeals are made. Our school has taken 3 additionals for this Sept start with mixed Recept/Yr1.

yes nappyaddict. The reasoning behind it was mainly to have all or none...because there were too many parents coming in saying they did not want their child in the mixed class prior to this situation they have now, so they (powers at be) said enough was enough, and they mixed all three so there could be no more complaints!!

Seems- it depends on your councils definition of "safe route" ask for a copy of their rules. My council will use both lit and unlit paths, even if not safe! Also ask for A map indicating the route they have taken, which must be amended if you have a shorter route that uses their rules. If the council have also not been in communication with you about this. i.e i asked for an appeal pack since january 5 times, was never sent one then told too late too appeal! keep records of everything - phone bills, conversations etc. If you have no joy with these things speak to your MP or local counciller who will offer advice on how to approach this matter. If the council have made errors in the processing of your application then they will have to put them right. It is very time consuming but i also read through the School frameworks act and appeals code, which you can download for free. Good luck and if you need anything else let me know! I will try and find you some links and post here later Keep faith.. there is justice - the appeal panel are very good and unbiased and do not make you feel uncomfortable at all.

in ks2 they can be bigger, my dd's class has gone up to 34,
by oddly i am quite proud that these 5 newbies have chosen the school.
told you i was odd, but it is ks2 so i think they can manage larger classes then.

congratulations custard! I am proud of you - I know how hard it is. We have also just done an infant class size appeal. Why should your child be ediscriminated against when you have followed the procedure and meet the criteria. I was astounded and appalled at just how shockingly unprofessional, inaccurate and subjective the admissions procedure was at Surrey County Council where we are. Even the clerk of appeal told us we were doing the right thing by appealing because it is only by doing that that you go on record and the statistics will force them to admit their is a grave problem with school admissions. Otherwise they will continue spouting the "no funding for more school places" line. Appeals were up 40% this year in our area. I know how distressing and upsetting the process is, how they make you feel like a criminal for daring to point out their random and shoddy mistakes that have had a massive impact on your family through no fault of your own so: WELL DONE YOU FOR STANDING UP FOR YOUR CHILD!!!

At KS2 the limit depends on what the governors have set. But they can still go over for the aforementioned reasons.

melissa How do you think it would have been sensible to mix them. From a complete non-teaching POV I would have thought it would have made to sense to have the high ones and low twos together, the low ones and middle twos and middle ones and high twos. Or perhaps just low ones and twos, middles ones and twos and high ones and high twos. However this could be a complete disaster from a teacher's POV

Defintely an interesting read this thread! As one of the 'evil' parents about to appeal to get my DS into a reception class and attempt to get them to accept 31, I am pretty immune to what other parents think I'm afraid I have encountered some pretty eye-opening discriminatory opinions from school-gate mums over the years and I'm amazed a few of them could verbalise them without getting a very red face!!

Our admissions rules have changed this year. Previously it was LAC priority, followed by catchment siblings, catchment, followed by non-catchment siblings, followed by others. Now siblings, inlcuding non-catchment, have jumped above catchment because of the central gvmt rule changes.

We live well in catchment, around 400m from school where the catchment extends around 1100m at its furthest point. I have a child currently in the school, in fact I have had one or sometimes two children in the school for the last sixteen years since 1993, but because of the school holidays this year we have a five week gap in having a child on roll, my DS4 loses his sibling priority and we have been allocated to a school 2400m away. DS4 is number 2 on the wait list and we are around 100 feet further away (our LA measures as the crow flies) than the last child admitted apparently.

My DS4 is adopted, and until 9 months ago was LAC, so if we had delayed his adoption he would have been first on the list period. Shame that in adopting him we disadvantaged him in getting in the school, but as this is unheard of, we could not have foreseen this. My son has also survived infant leukaemia and consequent treatment, but although the LEA have a 'exceptional social/emotional/medical need' exception which gives priority, apparently the only 'trauma' they can quote me as important is 'sudden death of a parent' - the fact that mine has lost ALL of his birth family is seemingly not as traumatic (such terrible ignorance on the part of local children's directorate I feel it is very important that my son is educated at the same school as his older siblings and within his local community, building lasting friendships with people from just around the corner as my older boys have done, and that he shouldn't be made to feel anymore 'different' than he already will do because of adoption etc. I just wish we'd been aware of the changes when we applied as I would have delayed his legal adoption.

My children have gone to this school because its close, in safe walking distance, and I am vehmently opposed to the driving of children to schools which are perceived to be 'better'. We bought the house 20 years ago with the proximity of a small, modern-build primary school within five minutes walk very much in mind for our then one six month old child. My two older sons pre-date the class size laws. One was in a class which briefly maxed out at 42, and the other at 38, they both got level 5 KS2 SAT's despite the big classes. The have both done fine at high school, and I suspect the bigger classes aided getting funding for the additional staff the primary school have employed. All classes have a FT TA, and the school has two retired teachers from the school who do regular weekly supply a couple of days a week each. The school is in a generally middle class area and is reasonably well achieving in KS2 SAT, usually in top 10-20% of schools in the borough - but SAT test results are usually more about demographics than anything else - i.e. middle class kids with prof/semi prof parents tend to achieve more highly than lower socio-economic groups which populate some of the lower achieving school areas - it too is not rocket science - one of the big factors in school achievement is parental support and parental value of the benefits of education.

Appealing is absolutely the right thing to do;what parent wouldn't go to the wire for what they thought was right for their child? I could point out a few schools where keeping order in a class of 15 would be much harder than managing and effectively teaching a class of 35 in this school.

Caroline

Good luck Caroline, I hope your little boy gets the place he deserves. Surely he should still count as LAC.

I too have been astounded at the attitude of other parents who have already got their children into the school of their choice. Obviously class numbers should be controlled (and I think even 30 is probably not even ideal), but how any parent can countenance children like yours being so cruely disadvantaged when any minor disadvantage to their own children could be so easily absorbed is beyond me. Selfishness in the extreme.

Custardpants. Well done to you. I know how you must feel.
Our appeal was pulled the day before it was due to be heard as a place became available. Believe that and you will believe anything, IMO.
I was prepared to fight and was slightly disappointed I could not question the LEA about their decision as in my case, they did not stick to their admissions policy.

However, well done and good luck to everyone else in same boat.

I know 30 is a big class size and ideally we would all want much smaller classes; however if the LEA has made mistakes (and many do) we have to fight them for our childrens sakes.
My child has just as much right as your child to a place.

The problem here is the system, not the parents.

We're also getting ready to appeal. We've had the cheek to not have been in the country during the regular admissions round for reception and the council would NOT accept our application without an address despite our pleading that we really had to apply and that we were moving back.

So where's that left us - being sent to a school that is absolutely not right for my daughter more than 2.5 miles away (this is London there are at least eight schools closer by that we'd prefer).

It's not my daughter's fault that the council has not planned properly and there are hardly any school places.

It's not my daughter's fault that 30 is considered an appropriate class size for very young children. Let's face it - the difference between 30 and 31 is minimal.

It's not my daughter's fault that 'choice' only benefits certain groups of people and discriminates against others.

As a parent, it's my duty to do the best for my daughter within the law.

So, yes, I am prepared to exaggerate the truth, pretend to have a faith which I don't have, play the system. I am SO disappointed and disillusioned in how it works here that I will do those things, even though it digusts me.

In the US where we were living you go to the school you're assigned to within a school district. When you move into an area, you know almost for sure what school you'll be going to, whether or not you've been living there for years or just moved in.

Coming back here has been a real shock. It's not choice, it's just ridiculous. Thankfully my daughter has educated parents who are prepared to fight for her to get the education we feel she deserves and I won't apologise for that to anyone.

Not always so in the US where my cousin lives they run some sort of lottery (or possibly a smoothing thing to even out the admissions in various social engineering ways) and end up bussing 4 year olds all over the town for hours.

I remember her asking me because she has a friend who has refused to bus her lo with SN (I must ask again to find out what happened) cousin also said they will prob end up moving to avoid the whole thing!!

WELL DONE YOU! I'm guessing the people who are being so sanctamonious about you making the class go over 30 didn't have the stress of going to appeal.

1dilemma:

True, the system is far from perfect in the US as well. And there are some school districts that do things differently

I'm not sure what the best system is - but certainly not the one that we've got now.

If I'd have known it would be this difficult to find a decent school, I'm not sure we'd have come back.

oh I agree the system is pants and needs to change, I'm on your side (there has however been a long thread about pretending to have a faith and why it might not work/is not such a good idea so I'm afraid I'm not with you on that bit)

I would be totally unphased about dcs being in a class of 31/32 however I would be far more bothered about them being in a class of 2 with some children although perhaps not so much at 4!!

Some parts of London are at a real crisis this year there are currently estimated to be 180 children in my borough who wont have a place in Sept. My LA wanted us to walk past the school we do want to go to one with a place or like you travel for ages to the other side of the borough where there are school places and fewer children.

Hope you get a better school sorted!

I have just lost an infant class size appeal for the second time. The first time we did it alone but the second, most recent, we employed an independent specialist to help us prepare the statement. We were originally told that we were the only ones at that stage who had appealed but others have also been turned down and may appeal so we should prepare the statement in accordance with mixed prejudice and infant class size (because there was only 1 space left). When we received the paperwork, it was still on both grounds but noted another set of parents were also appealing. The only family arrived 10 minutes late on appeal day but it was unnoticed because the panel were late finishing their lunch! We were initally told that both sets of parents (us and them) had to present our case on both mixed prejudice and infant class size grounds, then 10 mins later (before proceedings started) were told the other family's case would be considered on prejudice and our considered both! Where is the fairness in that. We appealed earlier in the year on infant class size and lost for current reception year so could not apply again for the year when 1 child dropped out, so we applied for a place from Year 1 Sept (considering it is now the summer hols). The other family appealed for a reception space! The system just seems very unfair and whilst I hold nothing against foreign nationalities, which they were, I do not think it fair when we have resided in the catchment area longer than them but because they have just moved to the area (and luckily could get their older child into school in that particular year group as there were spaces - we have no other child), they get priority! The school is our catchment school and we even raised the High Court ruling which states personal circs can be taken into consideration on Infant Class Size Appeals but it did nothing. We have spent a vast amount of money for this chap helping us but this other family who were successful could not speak hardly any English and found it difficult to get their points across, but they won! I don't mean to sound bitter but I now have to wait a whole year to apply again, unless 4 children drop out, to take it below their desired PAN of 87. My son, started reception in April 2009 and now has to attend a school just under 2 miles away and hence we rely on the family car for getting him there. He will not be 5 until August and it would take him at least an hour to walk there. I believe in situations like this YOU CAN@T BEAT THE SYSTEM!

you are obviously not and have never been the parent of a child whom you are unable to get into the school of your choice. all good parents want the best for their child and how do you know this person is not being forced to send their child to a poorly rated school through no fault of their own? it may be that they live a metre too far away to an oversubscribed school and yet the next nearest school is miles away and NOT VERY GOOD!! don't be so quick to judge. let's face it, if all teachers and schools were as good as the next and far stricter measures were in place to make sure that standards were not allowed to slip then we wouldn't even be having this conversation, would we? as all parents would be more than happy to simply send their child to the nearest school! quite frankly, my sympathies undoubtedly lie with the stressed out, devastated, and let down by the system parent as opposed to the frazzled teacher in this instance!!!!!