No school place available - East Sheen (Richmond Uptghe on Thames) Advice please!!!

[Helliebean1]

Hello - I'm new here but could really do with some advice.

Following from the disappointment of findout that not only did our dd not get one of her 3 chosen schools in East Sheen - she didn't get anything (much crying/shouting/stressing), I was advised by the council to 'remain calm' and wait to see how the waiting lists panned out. So today the lists became available and she is between 9th and 39th at the 6 schools she is on the waiting list for (with the majority being over 20th....) so not looking good. The lady at the council offices agreed that it 'doesn't seem fair' that children who have already been offered a place at a chosen school are ahead of my dd but that is the 'way it is'. She told me to call again in a few weeks after the council have had a while to consider a contingency plan... Sorry, is it me or should they have 'considered a plan' a little sooner??
So my question is, does any one have any experience of how much these lists move (given that we are in a bulge/credit crunch kinda year) and whether I would have any grounds at all for an appeal (no statement of special needs other than the need for a place at a school!!!) if she is eventually offered the only one school within 3 miles of our home that I don't want??
Any advice most welcome and thank you x

In my experience the lists move very quickly, lots will be offered a place but not want to take it, have taken another elsewhere, or if term has started they wont want to move their child.

Places do come up throughout the year. It was similar in my dd1's year group. We ended up in a bulge class at Holy Trinity. We too lived in east sheen and no other school had a spot. The school was brilliant and although we have since moved on, I can highly recommend it. Many people use to dislike it a few years ago but the head is great and the school grounds are great for london. Their results have also rapidly improved.

I am sure the council will just have to put up more bulge classes if several people are in your position.

Best of luck !! Might be a good time to take up drinking

9th sounds pretty good. I know someone who got a place at one of the East Sheen schools who started out at 14th on that list - that particular year group are Y6 now and it obviously varies a lot from year to year given siblings etc. There are always people who move away or who are holding places, like you, on more than one list, so don't give up hope. In fact we moved away and gave up a reception place in our first choice school.

I'm in Richmond, have had similar experiences with schools this year and have bowed out and am sending dd1 private.

If you don't want to do that (and no reason why you should) I'd say hold on tight and, as others said, they will put on a bulge class somewhere - they're going to have to, one in 10 people in RuT didn't get any of their choices this year, so you are far from alone. Hopefully it will be at a school you really like. Otherwise, sadly for you (and me), the credit crunch plus the excellent reputation of RuT primary schools is undoubtedly going to make the lists move more slowly than in previous years you'll have to hold tight until late summer and even into the first day of term when finally people who've been holding on to two places will decide to drop on. Can you keep your dc on at nursery another term until a place comes up if necessary? It will, but I totally sympathise and think it's a horrible position to be put in and - as you say - the council should have foreseen this earlier . Good luck.

Lots of threads about this, there is one here or education asking where your child was on the list and yet still got a place. There are a fair few children in Southwark, and Wandsworth without any school as well.

FWIW our local council had (roughly I suppose) about 100 children more applying this year (ie not huge credit crunch effect) but has 300 without a place they have allready opened 4-6 new classes (some are half classes) and are anticipating 150 children to be still without a place in July!! I found all this out by looking at the minutes of their education committees posted on the net.

We have only moved down waiting lists for our chosen schools (apart from moving up 1 place on one and a few places on another when they opened up another classroom (of 30) don't know where the other children all sprung from. We would need the entire 3 form entry to turn down their place to get into the other ie we are over 100th on the W/L.

I also don't think it is possible to hold more than 1 state school place any more

You can appeal and I think LA are going to have trouble with all these appeals saying well my child has no school place so either you give me one or you are stating that they don't need an education (IYSWIM) however infant class size prejudice will come into play (again lots of stuff if you look around on here) so it will be ineresting.....

Sorry this has happened to you try not to let it get you down too much

Thanks to all of you. I feel slightly less anxious today but it's still so upsetting as all her friends are talking about which school they will be going to and I have to keep making up 'rubbish' about taking time to choose the very best school etc etc. I know all parents say it but she is really bright and I just don't want her to miss the first term of school as she is so ready for it and I feel i will be cheating her.

Going private is not an option for us - we absolutely don't have the money and even if we did, it seems madness when we live in a borough with some of the best state primary schools in the country. I am now slightly facinated as to what is going to happen. I have been told that East Sheen Primary, Barnes Primary & Sheen Mount (our 3 nearest schools and our first choices) have declined to take an extra class, Holy Trinity has already filled an extra class and Kew Riverside is only a one form entry and pretty small. Further afield Darrell have already filled an extra class, Marshgate have also declined an extra class. Which means that there are literally no more schools within the 'gurateed' 3 mile radius within borough. So now what?

Please do keep sharing any experiences you have of waiting lists/appeals. I never thought of myself as a 'pushy mum' but all of a sudden, I feel ready to battle anyone!!!! thank you again so much x

Helliebean what is the "guaranteed" three mile radius? Haven't heard of this. I know in Lambeth we have often bussed children to neighbouring boroughs?

Helliebean, hang in there. A couple of DD1's classmates from E.Sheen were offered places over the summer at one of the schools you mention.

Fwiw, Sheen Mount is ridiculously hard to get into although we were offered a place there when DS was half-way through Year 1!

Also 3 children in DS's year moved from Holy Trinity to our school after Reception. Not the ideal scenario but given that Reception is pretty much an extension of nursery, it's not a massive upheaval for them anyway.

Thanks again for useful knowledge. I knew Sheen Mount was unlikely - I know plenty of people 4 streets away from the school who didn't get in, but it was still our joint second nearest school (after East Sheen Primary and equal to Barnes....)

Janinlondon, I was advised by our local council that they offer a guarantee that your child will get a school place within borough and within 3 miles of your home. I was assured that they wouldn't send us to a school in wandsworth or hounslow (neighbouring boroughs) which is why I am now facinated to know how they are going to keep that promise!

Please keep any stories of waiting lists coming and if anyone can post a link to the thread about 'what number where you on a list when you were offered a place?' topic, that would be great as I can't find it.

Helen x

Wow Helen, that's some guarantee! Do you have it in writing??!!

I do! Well kind of... I sent an email to one of the councillers in the department asking him how he was proposing to keep this promise, but more importantly how on earth they could justify putting children on the waiting list ahead of my dd who have already been offered one of their chosen schools?? Anyway I got the usual 'understand your concern/local policy/unforseeable influx' waffle response but he didn't dispute the 'guarantee'. So we'll see... The whole thing is just making me feel sick and everytime DD mentions 'big school' I just want to cry. Ridiculous isn't it? x

No its not ridiculous, and I completely understand your anxiety. I went the way of Jujumaman because it was causing me so much distress when we did it. But the lists DO move an awful lot. Am crossing my fingers for you.

I find this completely puzzling - since they know before they allocate places they have a massive shortfall, what do they expect to happen - people just to fade away..? And as to schools 'declining' extra classes - how do schools have that autonomy - surely the LEA can just tell 'em to do it?
Sorry, not helpful, I know, but I can't see why we pay so much council tax ( I also live in East Sheen ) and get such a lousy 'service'

MrsGuy

They expect the good folk of Richmond to go private and get off their backs.

RuT council is a complete disgrace, huge c tax for which we are receiving no school place, no rubbish collection (they never pick ours up), not to mention my various other gripes which I shall not bore on about. They know that it's a lovely part of the world, I guess, and people will put up and shut up just to be here

Hello MrsGuy - couldn't agree more. It IS a lovely place to live (I grew up here, moved away then moved back after having my first child), but there is this assumption that we're all 'rich' and therefore don't mind being targeted with new pilot schemes that mean our residents permits have trippled, highest council tax in the universe etc!! I did write to Susan Kramer about the school issue - my real gripes are the fact that they must have known this was going to happen but did nothing about it, and the way the waiting list is managed. I agree that there is no 'easy way' of going about placing children in schools but they themselves keep going on about how this is an 'exceptional year' yet they won't review the lists to consider trying to place children with no school place at all, before making second or third offers to chidlren who are already in one of their chosen schools. I have spoken to lots of parents who got into 2nd and 3rd choice schools (as well as 1st) and not one of them said that they would object to an unplaced child being considered for a school that they are both on the list for ahead of their child. Not one! And yet RuT won't event entertain the idea. GGggggrrrr it's so frustrating and really upsetting. But.. thank you again, I am going to be like a dog with a bone over the next few months - they will come to dread my weekly calls! x

The way the waiting lists are managed is absurd. The other thing to point out to them is the abuse of siblings policy - the school we wanted to go to is full of siblings who live nowhere near the school but whose older siblings were placed there when it was considered the "sink" overflow school for the borough. It transformed into an excellent school with the result it's jammed with children from miles away and children round the corner can't get in.

I think they should say siblings only get priority if it's your nearest school, it would also solve the problem of people moving to get first dc into a school and then moving away.

Jujumaman - yes - that would make sense as a policy - I think some boroughs do have that - the 'nearest school' caveat would avoid the risk of siblings being split between schools - baring the unlikely event that a new school is built nearer between the siblings entry... And if the desired school is not the nearest when the first child obtains entry then at least the parents will be aware of the potential risk.
Susan Kramer might be inclined to take an interest with teh election coming up soon... Are there any concillors up for re-election?

Maybe you and I should stand Mrs G

Juju - not sure I follow you on the "abuse of siblings" policy. DS1 was allocated a place at an RuT primary which was undersubscribed. He went there, we found it was not nearly as bad as we'd feared, in fact rather good and still improving, so he is still there and DS2 will go as well. If DS2 were not a sibling he would not have a place, but 21 siblings in a 1 form entry school do tend to cut down the catchment area!

Part of the reason for our school's improvement is parental input and involvement. Part of the reason why I think it is a great school is the family atmosphere the head cultivates, which includes having siblings there. Why should the younger siblings be denied a place? How am I abusing the system? That said it is our closest school by a long way, so even with your reform DS2 would get in

And another reason why there are 21 siblings going to reception in September is that last year the head did agree to a small bulge class, and some of the current yearR children have siblings the academic year below them.

Are you very near Hammersmith? I seem to think for some reason you are, and we are talking about the same school. If so my advice would be to go and speak to the head of the school you mentioned, she is great.

abuse of siblings -

I think she means that after the first child got into the school the family subsequently moved out of the area BUT siblings still got in with this rule despite not living locally

our RuT primary is changing to a 3 form entry from September

will be a building site for years.......

But jujumaman would you still have wanted you child to go to the local school if it had still been the "sink" overflow school?

Those children and parents helped make the school what it is. The siblings will peter out eventually giving priority to local children.

fridayschild, I suspect my dd is at the same school as your ds, and yes, she is lovely

It is actually our nearest school, just, I think (about equi-distance to Barnes Primary) but we are well out of this year's cut-off limit. dd got in when it was, as Juju says, considered the 'overflow' school and not many put it as their first choice.

I feel mixed about the sibling rule. If it changes, dd2 will not get to go to the same school her sister goes to, that I spend a lot of time supporting, and that she lives nearest to. OTOH, I think its awful that people living a few roads away can't send their kids there

This year's mess is a nightmare, I can't imagine how the borough didn't see it coming. I strongly suspect dd's school would be happy to expand and take two year groups, but the borough would need to fund the building work needed: why didn't/don't they?!

And Helliebean, fwiw, I totally agree with you about how unfair the way the lists is managed is. Mad, really.

Elibean, hello, did you see the message I left for you on another thread about the Crescent School?

Hijack over. Fridayschild etc, yes, we're all talking about the same school. I'm not accusing you of abusing the system because of course you and Elibean and countless others want your dcs to be togehter. But I think it's a mixed-up system in that , of course you want a family atmosphere but at the same time how are you going to create a local, community atmosphere when people 350 metres away from the school can't get their dcs in and will have to end up bussing them miles away?

In any case, as ramona siad, the abuse I was thinking of more specifically is to do with people buying/renting houses near schools getting one child in and then moving to where they really want to be, which doesn't happen so much in this incidence but does a lot elsewhere in the borough and in others.

It's a tricky issue, but really it's not worth quibbling over as the only real answer is to BUILD MORE SCHOOLS.

I'm not entirely sure that it is siblings policy that has turned this particular school around, imo most credit is due to its inspirational head. I have met her a few times, I think she's amazing. Not sure how she can help me on this particular issue, however, since the school is full. I do know she's devastated too that locals can't get in - at least that's what she's telling us disappointed locals. Hope all your dcs end up happy with whatever school they attend.

No, juju, I didn't! I can't remember which thread it was, either clue, please?

[sorry, yet another hijack over]

Definitely, build more schools. Or fund the existing one, including the inspirational-head's one, to expand - I think she'd love to, from what I know of her!

I think its extraordinary how fast this problem has arisen, in our immediate vicinity - last year, we were given dd's school, as were many people in our nearest streets, whether we wanted it or not (we did, many more didn't). This year, people are being turned away. No one last year would have even thought twice about a sibling rule, because there wasn't an issue with getting in - quite the opposite.

One of the parent governors lives in our road. Another very involved parent lives a couple of streets nearer, but still well out of the 300+ metre cut-off for this year. And its our local school, so siblings or not we should be able to send our LOs to it, as well as families who live 500 metres nearer! Its a mad world...