Sex and Relationship education for 5-10 year olds.

[webquack]

Hi everyone. I'm looking for mums who are as angry as I am about the current government proposals to introduce compulsory sex and relationship education (SRE)for 5-10 year olds. I am also unashamedly asking for more signatures on the No. 10 website which is asking Gordon Brown to conduct a 12 week public consultation on these proposals so that parents and others can have their say. Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, and this inspite of decades of sex education in secondary schools. SRE hasn't worked. So what does the government do? They introduce the more SRE! Do you want your five-year-old to be naming body parts, being informed about intimacy and what is and isn't appropriate touching? Do you want your child sexualised at an early age and to lose their innocence any earlier than necessary? If not please join the growing chorus of concerned parents by going to: petitions.number10.gov.uk/Parentchoice

What intrigues me still - is that in spite of the fact some of you regard me as a fruit loop - you keep coming back for more. If I really thought someone was a fruit loop I wouldn't bother engaging with them.
I think most of yu are more offended by the fact I disagree with homosexuality than you are by the fact I think parents should be the sole dispensers of SRE to their children. As parents we should engage fully with our kids from the moment they are born. We shoud have a 'no holds barred' policy of parenting, whereby no subject is off-limits. In this way they will grow to trust us and talking about SRE in the home should be as natural as talking about sport or holidays. The beauty is that as parents we can then teach them how WE as parents believe it should be taught - not according to a secular, materialistic, humanistic agenda, which is what you will get in the average state school.My sons are 4 and 3. So far they have not asked me about the facts of life. why would they? I have explained to them that they used to be inside my 'tummy' and they did not ask me anymore than that. As they grow they will want to know more and it will be my and my hub's privilege to teach them this - and not in some moral vacuum, as in a school, but in a context of what sex is actually designed for - to bind together two people of the opoosite sex in a lifelong commitment, and for the raising of children. That is what I believe. If you find that abhorrent and disgusting, then you must make your own way through life in whatever way you think best. The sad truth is that our government are blind guides in many respects - tho thankfully there are some in Westminster who are not - but unfortunately they are the minority. A blind guide cannot see teh dangers ahead or even find teh way forward - such is our New Labour who are so weak that they cave in to pressure groups such as the FAP - cornered by their own silly policies and political correctness. We are however still very fortunate in this country (relative to others) in that free speech can still take place - tho that is gradually being eroded- as I mentioned earlier.

People keep posting because despite disagreeing with you alot of people enjoy the debate. Mumsnet is great partly because you can talk to people who you vastly disagree with and would be unlikely to have such discussions with in real life.

Cory, take me back to the Swedish thing. You say they are sexually liberal but very responsible towards rearing children and very family orientated. I think you said they have a low teenage preg rate and they have SRE in school? From what age?
I'm speculating that their solid approach to parenting and emphasis on family could well be the reason for the low rate of teen preg. If that is the case then the way to tackle it here is not through more SRE but by refocusing on good parenting - lots of involvement with our children from day 1, strong parental love and ongoing dialogue and engagement. Here in teh UK I think we have created problems for ourselves because there is not an emphasis on family, we are not community-minded (for the most part) and parents are so busy going out to work long hours (I think we work the longest hours in Europe?) to pay off all the bills etc. that they hardly see their children! It is a hands-off appraoch to parenting that prevails - and the state is stepping in more and more to become 'Nanny'. Even 'nanny' to its adult citizens - who are wrapped up and cossetted like babies. All they need to do for us now is slap on a nappy, stick dummies in our mouths - to shut us up, and rock us to sleep, while they make their loony, damaging laws..

Hercules - I still wouldn't engage with a nutcase! And btw I do discuss this with parents in real life - don't you?!

To illustrate my point that I would not engage with nutters - please look back at Solidgolds last post - and my response to it. (which has been my reponse to all such boring posts - from people with nothing ueful to contribute, no arguments and no vocabulary to express them with even if they had.) ie - I dont engage with nutters. I rest my case.

Off to church - bye!

No Webquack, you don't want to acknowledge your own sexual obsessions, so you (like all the mentalist christian extremists) continue ranting utter nonsense about your imaginary friend and how it hates poofs/everyone who isn't a mentalist christian extremist.
Really all it would take would be a couple of whiffs of amyl nitrate, a tweak of the nipples and a spin round on a giant dildo to improve your outlook considerably.

I do strongly think that SRE should be left to parents and not to school. That way you know exactly when your child is ready for what. I do not like the idea of things of such importance being decided by someone who does not know my children. They are too many things to consider for that subject to be just another school lesson :

• actual maturity of the child, not his/her age,

• values that the family wishes to give to their children,

• religious background,

-cultural background

I am all for good, healthy sexual education for children, but not an "one size fits all" provided by school.

Nope, sorry, that won't work. Most of the parents who make a big deal out of not wanting their DC to have SRE are sexually abusing them and don't want them taught they have a right to say no - or they are intolerant, ignorant fuckwits like the OP.

I resent that comment solidgold. I think it is all to easy for parents to leave that responsability for the teacher. I think you are ignorant one if you think that parent are not fit to educate their own children on the subject!

I hope they make SRE compulsary because of people like Webquack. I also resent that bigots like 'her' have acquired the label 'pro-family'.

Gorionine: many parents are not fit to educate their own children on the subject of sex and relationships. Either because they are sexually abusing them, or because they are ignorant bigots like Webquack.
Of course, plenty of parents are reasonably sensible on the subject (though don't forget that many children would rather hear about personal matters from someone other than their parents and would certainly prefer to discuss intimate matters with a professional or kindly other person who is not a family member) but it's because of the nutters the morons - and the abusers - that schoolchildren need other sources of information.

I think that its unfair to label parents like Gorionine or even our old friend, webquack as abusive just because they do not want their children having SRE.

The biggest problem for parents is that they sometimes do not appreciate that their children are going up. They think of their child as being a cute baby in nappies rather than a grown man or woman. There are times that the speed of my son's development and ablites take me by surprise and he is only seven. I can imagine that when he is fourteen I will still think of him as my little baby and too young for SRE.

However I think there are other causes of teenage/ unplanned pregnancy. Prehaps the biggest is low self esteem. Another big danger is underage/ over drinking. SRE is not enough on its own.

I am not labelling Gorionine in any way and haven;t done so. I would consider webquack to be likely to be a toxic parent as s/he is so homophobic and may well do severe damage if any of his/her DC are bisexual or gay.

gorionine

The report into SRE that is prompting these changes does agree with what you have said. It wants SRE changed to recognise diversity, and mentions religious and cultural diversity and how these should be catered to in the lessons.

webquack on Sun 11-Jan-09 10:09:56
"Cory, take me back to the Swedish thing. You say they are sexually liberal but very responsible towards rearing children and very family orientated. I think you said they have a low teenage preg rate and they have SRE in school? From what age?"

I could not tell you what age they start formal sex education lessons (i.e. lessons set aside specifically for this subject as opposed to human biology being taught in science) these days: in my day it was around the age of 10.

It is extremely common for both parents to go out to work once the children are past infancy (SAHMs less common than in the UK), but parental leave (shared by both parents) is generous, nurseries are high quality, and generally people tend to work shorter hours. So I agree that there are many factors involved.

What I wanted to point out is that it is perfectly possible to have this kind of society, combined with a long tradition of SRE. There is nothing inherent in SRE that automatically robs children of happy childhood feelings or strong family feelings.

webquack on Sun 11-Jan-09 09:24:38
"Just what is you duty Cory, as a Christian? Is it to blend in with teh crowd"

No, it is to stand up for what my conscience tells me is right- even against other Christians if necessary. In the present instance, my conscience happens to align me with the majority of speakers present. This is not always the case, certainly not when I am discussing these things with evangelical Christian friends. Makes no difference to my duty as a Christian, as far as I can see. I think you would be wrong to infer that anyone who comes to a different conclusion from yourself about their Christian duty can only be a nominal Christian.

Cory - it sounds to me like life in Sweden is more conducive to better parenting, for the reasons yo mentioned. i would like to find out at what age they begin SRE in their schools and also if it is SRE or just SE.

It sounds like you disagree with you revangelical friends - have I got that right? I am asking in order to find out where you are coming from - what church do you attend. What are your core beliefs?

Solidgold "Nope, sorry, that won't work. Most of the parents who make a big deal out of not wanting their DC to have SRE are sexually abusing them and don't want them taught they have a right to say no - or they are intolerant, ignorant fuckwits like the OP."

I might be taking things personnaly, but it really appeared to be about my post, therefore about me, hence resentment.

My point was that nowadays parents tend to give ( or rather choice is taken away from them) more and more of the "education" to schools and teachers and parents are less and less involved in educating their own children as everybody seems to know better that paents what is good for their children.

I would not like webquack to educate my children more than I would like solidgold to do so, but I am absolutely convinced that they are both adequate to pass their knoledge down to their own children.

cory standing up for what your conscience thinks is right is also what OP and I are doing. Fortunately we do not all have the same conscience, the world is therefore richer and we can all carry on disscussing this tricky but never the less extreamly interesting subject in the nicest possible manner.

Gorionine, welcome to the minority! It's good to hear from someone who agrees with what I am saying. If the gov goes ahead with its plans to introduce compulsory SRE in primary schools, what will you do? Are your chiildren pre-school or in school already?

Solidgold makes some remarkably barmy comments. How many parents do you know who you think are sexually abusing their children? One would think 1 in 3 children are being raped by their parents. This society is sick - but not THAT sick. And if they really are doing that then surely they would not want to draw attention to themselves by shouting down SRE?

I think Gorionine is saying what I have been saying all along. Tho mercifully she hasn't been labelled an "alarming, intolerant, blinkered, hysterical, pig-ignorant, extreme, offensive, prejudiced bigot" -(check posts) as I have. Could it therefore be that what some of you are really offended by are my views on homosexuality, and that I do not want my sons being taught that this is acceptable and normal, when it clearly isn't.

web - haven't read the whole thread, so don't know what your precise objections are, but I do object to the idea of my children being given SRE by teachers. It is my job to educate them in this way, when I feel that they are ready. They are four and six, and I answer their questions as they arise in a way that I feel is appropriate to their stage of development and understanding. It makes me really, really cross that the government thinks it knows better than I do!

I believe my children's (independent) school isn't going to go down this route, thank goodness. If they do, I shall remove my children from the lessons. If this is illegal, they will be 'ill' on the relevant days!

3 of them are in school already (reception, year3 and year5). I will think about appropriate way to deal with the situation when it does arrise. I am not at all worried about them knowing their body parts at all, what worries me is more on moral issues. I do not agree with letting teenagers "experiment" with sexuality just because problems like teen pregnancy can be easyly dealt with with an abortion or the morning pill preferably and without the parents being involved in the process at all. I am weary of anyone who thinks that knowing how and when to use a condom will solve our society's problems it will slow down STDs yes but it will not IMO make people more responsable emotionnaly. As parent s we have a reponsability towards our children and it is far too easy to leave this responsability to a third person.

petitions.number10.gov.uk/Parentchoice/
Dottoressa adn Gorionine, please take a look at the petition. It is asking for a public consultation on SRE in primary schools where parents will also be consulted.