Sex and Relationship education for 5-10 year olds.

[webquack]

Hi everyone. I'm looking for mums who are as angry as I am about the current government proposals to introduce compulsory sex and relationship education (SRE)for 5-10 year olds. I am also unashamedly asking for more signatures on the No. 10 website which is asking Gordon Brown to conduct a 12 week public consultation on these proposals so that parents and others can have their say. Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, and this inspite of decades of sex education in secondary schools. SRE hasn't worked. So what does the government do? They introduce the more SRE! Do you want your five-year-old to be naming body parts, being informed about intimacy and what is and isn't appropriate touching? Do you want your child sexualised at an early age and to lose their innocence any earlier than necessary? If not please join the growing chorus of concerned parents by going to: petitions.number10.gov.uk/Parentchoice

I recently did a teaching accreditation to teach PSHE and specialised in SRE so,no, not really.

webquack, what the statistics show are a slight rise in 2007 and slight decline in 2006 but an overall trend of decline since 1998. If something that has been tried over 20 years has shown and overall improvement with slight variations from year to year, why would that lead you to conclude that it has not been successful?

And those who point out that Britain now has a comparatively high rate of teenage pregnancy fail to remember that this was also the case 20 years ago.

Cory, I have know all along that the proposals for SRE for 5 year olds are not the facts of life as such. It will consist of body parts, relationships, intimate touching. That is all I have heard about it so far. I think even the 'experts' involved in this process are still not decided on what will and will not be included in SRE- however, it is not the place of a school to do this - as I have been saying over and over again. And if they are going to start talking about intimate touching, what is that but sexual? Frankly, I want my boys to retain their innocence for as long as possible - I want them to be CHILDREN, carefree and happy. If they are curious about babies I will answer their questions - it is on a need-to-know basis at the discretion of parents. I hope now it is clear what I think - but I expect someone out there will misconstrue my words.

Cory, it's that government propaganda getting the better of you again..........thought I was succeeding in weening you off it

LOL Those quotes are from the christian.org news

Google 'the christian institute' to get more info on where the campaign is coming from - as if we hadn't guessed.

I'm hiding this thread now.

webquack on Sat 10-Jan-09 18:44:44
"Cory, it's that government propaganda getting the better of you again..........thought I was succeeding in weening you off it"

Your only chance of being successful in weaning me off it would be to show me alternative figures from a reliable statistical body which prove that the teenage pregnancy rate has actually risen over the last 20 years. A small temporary blip in 2007, in an otherwise declining trend, does not prove your point.

And just using emotive language about the government won't do it either. I am not even a New Labour supporter, so that doesn't affect me one way or another. I held the same views about the advisability of sex education before New Labour had even been invented. So hardly a result of government propaganda.

What are you scared of brokenrecord that you have to 'hide'?

Why do you call an annual increase a "small temporary blip"? It is only a temporary blip if figures begin to drop again. You will have to wait to see where it goes from here. But to me it signifies that the progress the gov thought it was making is less significant than they hoped. Another point is that we are currently in transition, and it is the transition which is the concern of the petition. People are wondering where this experiment is taking us as a nation. One would expect that 3 decades of se in schools would have made us one of the nations with a lower teen preg rate - the opposite is true. I don't think anyone is saying that SRE is the sole cause of this - it is a systemic problem, caused by several factors, some of which have been mentioned in this discussion. It therefore requires a systemic solution, but the gov can only think of sex education as a solution. Why? Because their hands are tied - no one is 'allowed' to say this is right and that is wrong, anymore. It is almost akin to Huxley's thought police - we have New Labour Speak now, where people can be questioned by the police for publicly stating their views!

You know what, broken record, a picture comes to mind - when the Lion roars, the chattering hyenas scatter........

Now there are plenty of Christians, both on MN and elsewhere, who are perfectly nice people (for one thing, the Christianity they subscribe to involves stuff like, helping people in need, being kind, being fair in your dealings with others, etc). But there are unfortunately a lot of 'Christians' who are vicious, stupid bucketheads who reckon that they have this imaginary friend (who is also vicious and stupid) who justifies their pig-ignorant bigotry. They are quick to whine about 'political correctness' and the 'thought police' when it's their spite and stupidity being challenged, but noticeably quiet over the current (faith-obsessed) Government's tendency to use excessive force to silence and suppress people who simply disagree with the Government on things like the Iraq war, extra censorship and the erosion of civil liberties.

well, dear lady, I can only do so much. If you want me to tackle all the world's problems you will have a long wait. However, thankfully, I am just one among millions of others who share the same views and they are doing their part. What has spite and stupidity got to do with signing a petition to protect children?

May I remind you that Jesus Christ himself was not "perfectly NICE" - quite rude at times, when dealing with hypocrites especially. So 'niceness' is no gurantee of authenticity.

An annual increase would mean that it had been going up every year or, at least, most years. It hasn't. Over the time that we have had sex education the overall trend is a decrease in teenage pregnancy.

And I don't know what you mean about people not being allowed to say what you want.

As far as I can see, we have two possible models in the shape of other countries with lower teenage pregnancy rates:

one is the Northern countries which do not have a traditional society or a predominantly Christian one, but which do have a long tradition of SRE

the other is southern countries where at least part of the low teenage pregnancy rate is explained by the overall low birthrate to mothers of all ages: these are countries where fewer people of all ages want to have babies. No doubt the traditional South European society plays a part, as does Catholicism. But I am not sure that wholesale conversion to Catholicism would do the trick for the UK, even if it were feasible, and I see no evidence that Protestant Christianism has the same effect on birthrates.

You would have to argue for a long time to convince me that Swedish children have less of an innocent or happy childhood than English ones: I spend too much of my time mixing with youngsters of both nations and I simply have not seen this. Yet Sweden is a far more secularised society than the UK and has a long tradition of SRE.

I know what you mean, solidgold, there are days when I'd almost rather be thrown to the lions than know that this is the impression most people will be getting of my faith.

Yes you are right, an annual increase would mean every year - which is not what I meant to say. I was referring to the increase over the one year period, which is still continuing, meaning we don't know if it is a temporary rise or not.

If you think there are no restrictions on what peole can say then it must mean you don't read the newspapers. If a person were to say in a public capacity that they disagreed with homosexuality they could be investigated. a counsellor who worked for Relate was sacked for refusing to counsel same sex couples because it went against his beliefs. He was questioned by police but no charge was brought - but I guess it is only a matter of time before that could happen.
I have no experience of Sweden but perhaps you can confirm whether its true that they are sexually very liberal.

Cory, you need to toughen up and get rid of this namby pamby image of Christians - tho some who you meet and call themselves so could be the 'vicarage, blue rinse tea-drinking brigade' - hardly a soldierly demeanour!

Webquack, do some of your fantasies involve being taken roughly from behind by squaddies, as well? That's a relatively common erotic trigger, you know: nothing particularly shameful.

Yes, Swedes are sexually liberal in the sense that sex outside marriage is not considered a sin and that parents often cohabit rather than marry. However, they are also extremely family-orientated and conscientious in their child-rearing. The two are not incompatible.

As a science teacher I used to be responsible for teaching the facts of sex and pregnancy to 11 year olds, and then again at 13.

While I think the subject is hugely interesting from a scietific point of view, ie the ins and outs (sorry sorry) of the plumbing etc, and fun to teach, I always felt that I was in no way qualified to properly discuss what they really needed to hear about, ie relationships. About respecting themselves, each other, about differentiating fact from fiction in the playground, about differentiating between any porn they had been exposed to and real life adult interactions.

The class was mixed so discussions were stilted, I was not an anonymous adult they wouldnt need to see again, and I had no timetable space, or training to get into those kinds of discussions in anything more than a superficial way.

The only eventual nod in the right direction came just before I left with a day off timetable for the year 10 and 11 with a series of workshops on various issues with health professionals- a good idea, but too late and too little.

Unless the government legislates, provision will remain random and patchy.

Webquack I suspect you have no idea just how unpleasant and alarming you sound. It is telling that people very quickly picked up on the religious angle in your posts. Why? Because they are blinkered, hysterical, intolerant and hugely worrying- the hallmarks of extremism. Really, they made me sit back from the screen and think 'bloody hell', what an unpleasant person.

Do you not remember being a teenager? Of course I want to be there to answer my daughters questions about sex, but I might be the last person they want to talk to at 15. My mother certainly was and she is a lovely woman. Please let there be a calm kindly adult there if they cant come to me, to present them with unbiased facts and encourage them to respect their own bodies and own choices.

Incidently, I have also lived in rural africa, in a place with huge HIV stats and I will quite happily get into that with you if you want.

I am a Christian, webquack, but I am afraid I do not meet many blue-rinsed vicars. I thought tougening up was precisely what I was doing on this thread- standing up for what I believe is right rather than what somebody else tells me I ought to believe to be right. It can be hard when the other party keeps suggesting that their belief is the only one approved by God, but I do believe it is my duty as a Christian.

Webquack

You don't sound well-informed about this subject, you've been offensive on a number of occasions on this thread, and your views are ill-considered, glib generalisations, spouting prejudice rather than genuine thought.

You've done your cause a lot more harm than good, IMO.

Cathpot, that was a very convincing post. You have described my experience of sex education at school and highlighted the ways that I would like to see it changed for my kids. I really hope that we get to see the changes you are talking about.

Cathpot, your points are all about teen SRE in secondary school. The subject here is SRE for 5-10 year olds.
We can talk about HIV in Africa but let's stick to teh UK context and SRE here. If you find my views worrying, then presumably you find those of Philip Davies MP worrying too - along with teh Christian Institute and those of radical Christians in general. If you prefer a luke warm version of Christianity you willnot find it here. Lukewarmers have zero impact.

Just what is you duty Cory, as a Christian? Is it to blend in with teh crowd - I could not distinguish between you and all the other rude ranters on this site (look back at some of your remarks). It is nominal Christians who do the most harm to the cause of Christ e..g the anglican church's acceptance of gay ministers! when the Bible makes it clear this is an unacceptable practice! By doing this they have compromised their authority and have become a laughing stock. Christ is no cuddly teddy bear -he is the Lion of Judah, fierce in battle.