Sex and Relationship education for 5-10 year olds.

[webquack]

Hi everyone. I'm looking for mums who are as angry as I am about the current government proposals to introduce compulsory sex and relationship education (SRE)for 5-10 year olds. I am also unashamedly asking for more signatures on the No. 10 website which is asking Gordon Brown to conduct a 12 week public consultation on these proposals so that parents and others can have their say. Britain has the highest teenage pregnancy rate in Europe, and this inspite of decades of sex education in secondary schools. SRE hasn't worked. So what does the government do? They introduce the more SRE! Do you want your five-year-old to be naming body parts, being informed about intimacy and what is and isn't appropriate touching? Do you want your child sexualised at an early age and to lose their innocence any earlier than necessary? If not please join the growing chorus of concerned parents by going to: petitions.number10.gov.uk/Parentchoice

hmm, hang on a minute -looking at the comments in this discussion what makes u think i'd have much in common with the reluctant worshppers?

Because it would give you a pool of people more open to being lectured on Christianity, and how they're not a proper Christian if they don't subscribe to your bigoted interpretation of the bible.

i mean can you really see me fiting in with a pro-gay, pro-sre for 5 year olds and pro-government prayer group?

Im willing to give it a go vestibule - if you think it would work (?) where IS it on the site btw?

combustible - how else would YOU interpret the following?

from the New International Version of the Bible - NIV

Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural erlations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion"

"shameful"?, "unnatural"?, "perversion"?
"indecent"? - phew, even Webquack was not as strident as the Bible itself!

Now, who would like to interpret that as being anything other than homosexuality is wrong? Wonder what will be next? Ban the Bible perhaps? Or tip-ex out a few unpalatable verses?.............

ok vestibule - you can label me a raving , rabid fundamentalist - it will add colour to the discussions

vestibule - when you say "we allow" it makes me think you are one of the originators of this website?
wouldn't want to blow your cover (titter)

"Well", (looks all around and takes in the silent, white landscape of Narnia), "seems like all the opposition on this one has been dealt with" (crisply snaps notebook closed, and attaches pen onto clipboard) "time to make an exit, now, where's that wardrobe?..............."

Anything in the bible can be interpreted in a number of ways because it has been translated into so many different languages and over such a long time frame. I think it is possible for Christian scholars to argue over the passage you've mentioned because in the original Greek/Hebrew/whatever it may well have been saying something a bit different. I don't profess to know anything about it but you just have to look on wikepedia to see that people can and do argue over that passage (people who study these things I mean). It also depends on whether you think the bible is subject to historiographical influences like any other document. It was written by people at a time when they did not know about genetics, and the fact that homosexuality appears in animals etc was not understood at that time. Have you given your views on the fact that homosexuality appears to exist in the bird and animal world Webquack?

"Oh, I thought we were done with this one..." (sticks head through door for a quickie....)
To answer your question raspberry "man, the fur coats in this bloomin' wardrobe are really itchy!" (steps onto snow for a brief chat)
When it comes to the authenticity and reliability of the Bible, we could have a discussion that not only takes us to tomorrow morning, but to next year and beyond!
Two point:

1. The Bible is a collection of diffferent types of literature assembled over centuries and which has been subjected to more scrutiny, examination and selection than any other book on the planet. You'll need to research it for yourself - but i spent 2 years full-time in a bible college and it wasn't long before i realised theology and biblical studies is a vast academic subject.

1. If the Bible cannot be trusted on the subject of human sexuality, then why should it be trusted on weightier matters such as sin, death, hell, salvation, heaven - things which determine where each and every human being will spend eternity.

it's popular these days to find a pick n' mix approach to faith/belief, where people simply take what appeals to them and leave the rest. They may choose 'love' but not 'judgement' they may like 'heaven' but reject 'hell'. It is total folly to do this - and illogical btw.

I wouldn't make light of it vestibule (brushes snow off a nearby branch) after all, life on earth is (sings) MAKE YOUR MIND UP TIME............
Gotta go - (steps back through door - slams shut, complaining voice "pesky bloomin' coats" - becomes increasingly muffled...silence)

Webquack, to give you another point of view, our church has seen this as an opportunity rather than a threat.

Personally I have ensured that I have taught my children what I feel they need to know about sex and relationships well before it gets covered by a school curriculum. They are exposed to talk and images at a fairly early age - the Totally Calum Best poster campaign came in for a lot of discussion for example. And for my 7 year old, some of his classmates have older siblings and there is already playground discussion on sex. So I'm much happier to have been discussing sex and relationships with him before that, where I can set the agenda, the context etc. Your fears about what a 5 year old will learn in school are pretty irrational to be honest. You should be more worried about what he will learn outside of school ime.

Our church has now had several people trained up to deliver SRE and PHSE in local schools, giving greater access and authority to speak than at any other time in recent years. And the church continues to forge stronger links with the schools and community via kids and youth clubs, marriage counselling, pregnancy counselling and debt counselling.

We find that we reach the community best by showing love. It is not our role to convict of sin - that is the role of the Holy Spirit. As you have correctly pointed out Jesus Christ was angry at times - typically with the Jewish religious leaders of his day (and once with a fig tree), rarely with the political government. Judaea was under Roman occupation and the chief contemporary expectations of the Messiah would be that he would overthrow the Romans, yet Jesus reinfoced the requirement to pay taxes, and that if someone is forced to go a mile, or to give up their tunic, then we should go beyond that. Jesus's wrath was directed time and again at the pharisees, those who were so consumed about the sins of others that they didn't look at their own.

"Goodness me, are you lot STILL at it?" (reluctantly sticks head out of door) (crunch on snow)

LadyMuck - wonderful that your church is so active in the community - good warfare against the Enemy.
If every church were to take over sre in this way then I think this would be a good solution! Given that evangelicals make up less than 5% of the UK population I doubt we can cover every school in the UK - or maybe your church could produce a programme of SRE to be made widely available to schools(just a thought)- not sure how you would twist the arm of the 'powers' that be to do that.

You say: "Personally I have ensured that I have taught my children what I feel they need to know about sex and relationships well before it gets covered by a school curriculum. " In order for me to do that I would have had to start already with my 3 and 4 year olds - since schools are proposing to start at 5.We are still unclear about the actual content to be used in the new proposals tho (repeats herself again ) Doodle2u makes it sound like the proposals were ridiculously inappropriate. Or were they being "irrational" as you put it?

Yes the weapons of our warfare are not of this world (singing- do u know that one?) and love is the greatest weapon we have. This discussion is not about condemning people - if they feel convicted then I suggest that could be the HS - since I surely cannot do it. (dusts a few flecks of snow off sleeves)
I did point out earlier that JC did not have a political agenda because he came to herald the Kingdom - hence all the parables teaching about it. That does not mean we should keep quiet about loony laws our gov makes (I think I have already had this out with KayHarkerishacked off.)
As for being consumed about the sins of others (giggles at the thought this is how you see me) well, we've had that one too.

Ahem, could you please do some background reading (ie the last 19 pages) before you enter this discussion again? I'm becoming quite hoarse repeating myself.
But do keep on fighting the good fight!

Well locally our church is covering 15 schools so far, so actually I don't think it is that big a deal for churches to do. If you are part of a denomination I would expect that there is someone who has already been working on this at some level. Again our experience isn't that it is the material that is important, but actually it is the qualities of those teaching it.

Doodle2U hasn't really given any detail about the proposals as far as I can see on this thread, though this isn't the first thread on this topic! What she has indicated though is that it will still be down to individual schools as to how they want to implement programmes such as these, and ime they are eager for people to partner them in that.

In terms of educating your children early, yes, I really think you must. If you keep them ignorant, then even if SRE was banned from schools, they would still learn about sex and relationships at school, as well as when they are reading, watching television, out and about and seeing billboards or advertising. Your family is the main model of family life, your relationship with your dh will be the most informative one to your dcs. Personally I think that you equip children better by educating them rather than keeping them in ignorance. There is plenty of Christian material aimed at young children.

If you have concerns about how things are being taught, then engage with the school, volunteer and support it. Become a governor and then you have a vote on how such measures are adopted or implemented. From your rants here I think that you are showing your ignorance of how schools operate tbh.

LadyMuck - hmm, I wonder who IS ignorant. Please consult the link below which is a parliamentary debate on the proposals re SRE for primary schools, secured by Philip Davies MP. It will educate you.

www.theyworkforyou.com/whall/?id=2008-11-26b.268.1

Sorry webquack, but actually that debate doesn't really give much insight into what happens, or even what might happen in the future, in any primary school, other than touching on the fact that a) appropriate people who have been well-trained for the task should deliver the teaching, and b) we are probably looking at on average no more than 6 hours worth of material in any given school year. Do you know what happens currently in your local school?

If you truly despair at the breakdown of relationships, and the cycle that many children are in, without suitable role models, then wouldn't this the best opportunity to reach a generation? You just have to look at some of the threads on here to realise that there are women who are trapped in abusive relationships, then to see that that was their role model. How much better to be able to educate children in healthy patterns of relationships from a young age.

The debate was obviously a short one. Personally I think that the current structure of the benefit and social housing system encourages a higher rate of teenage pg. For some women it really is the only way to escape from a horrible home life.

If you teach your children about sex and relationships at home I really don't think that you have anything to fear about what they may be taught at school. You will have a suitable forum to discuss whatever comes up whether in the classroom or the playground.

OK LadyMuck
as you will have noticed - Davies was arguing from a bigger picture perspective and giving stats to prove the overall ineffectiveness of SRE. Quite compelling.

Naturally you will see it from your own perspective and want to defend what your church is doing. Certainly if churches were to 'take over' the teaching of SRE that would indeed be preferable to the current situation. But will it happen? You could make it your task to rally the churches around the UK to do just that.

However, there is more than one way to skin a cat and personally I dont see SRE as being the ANSWER but rather supporting good parenting and enciuraging parents to take back their responsibilities. i would prefer to see the church provide parenting classes - such a thing has just been proposed at my own church.

As for reaching a generation there are manifold ways in which the church can do that - you mentioned some of them such as preg counselling etc. Our own church has a mission statement which covers every aspect of society! well, it's good to have a challenge!

Your points in paras 3 and 4 appear reasonable but I'm afraid I see it as 'selling out' to a bad system rather than tackling it head-on.

How do you want to tackle the current issues regarding relationships "head-on"? So far you only seem to want to ban a statutory framework for SRE (somehow glossing over the fact that most primary schools already undertake some form of SRE, and have done for a number of years, though you haven't yet answered the question as to what form it takes in your local school).

We still get a mixed response to parenting classes (ie in terms of actually getting people there), though continue to run them regularly across the area. We're looking at a half-day workshop for non-resident fathers to give them ideas as to how they can still be positive parents - currently this seems to be a gap in the "parenting course" market. The good news with PHSE and parneting courses is that usually the local council will give the church a grant covering training costs etc. What our church does isn't new, nor that uncommon tbh. LEAs and schools really are looking for people to get involved. If you are part of a denomination then I'm sure there will already be initiatives in which you can take part - you don't have to do it all yourself.

Sorry, could you also elaborate in terms of how I am "selling out"?

My point in para 3 is that certainly locally the % of teen pgs is higher amongst those with the least educational and employment opportunities. I couldn't personally say whether SRE plays a significant part in these pgs at all, but I know that many teen pgs are wanted.

In terms of para 4, why would I be selling out by teaching my children about sex? What is the alternative - pretending that it doesn't exist, or even that I have never had sex? When your dcs ask you outright "what is sex?" because they have heard about it (usually the word rather than the details of the act) in the playground, what will you say?