How on EARTH do you teach the times tables!?

[Boco]

dd is year 2, her homework is learning the 2x tables. Easy, she can say 2, 4, 6, 8 10 etc. But if you say what is 2x8 she looks blank and says 'what do you mean?'.

I can't seem to be able to explain the concept of TIMESing - I've been saying two lots of, which I thought might help, but she's not getting it. I've shown her a number grid, i've drawn two lots of cakes, four lots of two cakes, six lots two cakes etc - i've written them all down and tried just getting her to memorize - finally I've tried collapsing exasperated as she shouts 'I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!'

How how how how how?

by rote if she's not ready to understand it
she might understand it next week or next month or next year

but I would abandon the concept if she's getting upset by it and just do it by rote

You seem awfully worried about it but I wouldn't be

I would make the "by rote" be

"two times seven is fourteen" rather than 2 4 6 8 or "two sevens are fourteen" etc

so that if asked she knows the answer even if she doesn't understand

We teach then by singing songs.

This game is fun too

I'll send my ds round ...he knew all his tables up to 12x by end of yr 2. Not by rote either ...I had him teach dd who took alot longer to get the idea.

how comforting for the op, kiddiz!

Bloss - I agreewith the fact that quite often you learn how to do something first without fully understanding what you're doing. I am still doing this! I wouldn't expect a primary school child to learn the analysis of the real number line before using it, for example!
But rote learning tables? What is the point? You just have to understand what you're doing and you can work them out for yourself. You have to understand how to multiply to learn to divide.
What good is reeling off a load of numbers if you don't know why you are doing it? You couldn't even apply it to the real world if you don't understand what's going on.

Yes, but you need to learn it don't you. And it's going to take longer to understand, than to learn at that age. So if you wait for the concept thing to kick in you might miss out of the moment when they're really good at learning by rote, by signing, chanting, whatever. It's great having the times tables at your finger tips. it means that when you start fractions and algebra, which happens v early nowadays, you're not thinking about the arithmetic but just about the concept and you don't have to worry about the arithmetic at all, because you learned it already! So you don't have to work them out, ever, and can concentrate on more difficult stuff.

Why bother teaching them? Isn't that the school's job?

I give up! I suppose all children learn differently, and rote learning will get you through exams (I still no people who do this)
I just think it's sad that children start their education thinking that you don't have to understand things because you don't need to. How can they question things that they don't understand?
The fact that they start algebra and such like so early isn't a good thing, you need a good grasp on the basics before you can do that.
I know adults who can't use fractions or do algebra, and I think it's really sad. It's all down to the fact that they didn't understand what was going on, and that's not something I would like my dd to go through. I'm working bloody hard at the moment trying to get her to understand counting in 2s, 5s and 10s without simply reciting numbers at me for no good reason!

Is there some problem with rote learning I haven't heard about?

blueskyandsunshine - I don't know if 'officially' there is a problem with rote learning. I have a problem with rote learning!

Message withdrawn

I would be interested to know when they start learning their tables. Boco you DD is in year 2 - is it fairly standard that they start then or is your DD very good at maths? I am just trying to work out what they do when!

There were lots of things I learned in maths (and later in physics) that I only learned by rote, and came to understand later (and in the case of physics, never came to understand because I stopped after 0-level). I think rote learning is vitally important. It transformed DS1's maths achievements in Y3 and Y4 - before, he spent so much time trying to work out the arithmetic, as Bleurgh says, that he wasn't able to move onto the concepts. He's always been strong conceptually, but not arithmetically, and he needed help to get that bit.

Arithmetic is only a very small part of maths, and the most boring part for lots of mathematicians. It's just the part they focus on in primary school.

I think they start in year 2. They are doing 2x 5x and 10x to start.

Thanks for the advice on this thread, it's very useful.

Bleurgh it's not that I'm worried, more frustrated because I'm not able to explain it well and she's not grasping it well so it isn't fun.

DS2 (9 today!) still hasn't really got to grips with why in the times tables. We do rote learning, just because, and I hope some day the meaning behind it might fall into place.

In fact I think he found the whole marvellous illustration I did with dried pasta, even more confusing and distracting.

He is seriously crap at maths though.

I don't see the point of not understanding something so that you can then use it to not understand something else... slippery slope I reckon!
The problem really is that schools/colleges/universities are far too target/exam driven. They don't care how you get through, just that you do.
Schools want to be able to tick that little box that says "X can multiply" when actually X can't multiply at all. X can remember lots of numbers - well done!
bloss, I'm not having a go here, it just really annoys me that people don't understand the concept of multiplication. I know adults who think they can't multiply, when they can obviously work out things such as:
If 1 apple costs 18p. How much is 3 apples?
Not only is this multiplication, it is also algebra!
If teachers assume that a child can multiply before they actually can, it's very hard to go back in a couple of years time and admit that you never really knew what it was all about.
I think that having your tables at your fingertips could well be a very useful thing, but I think it is boring, and a waste of your life to recite them. Probably why people think they hate maths! The concept is far more important, and you really don't need to learn them - I picked most of them up as I went along.

oh god trumpetgirl right, I reckon. Ignore me, the whole thing a grey and slippery place for me too.

My dd (10) yr 6 - still struggles with tables.

But the concept of multiplication isn't difficult, is it, for older children and adults? Obviously it's hard for some little children when they're first introduced to it, just as learning how letters represent the sounds in words can be difficult.

I think it's a real waste of your life to become scared of maths because you can't work it out quickly. It's liberating to know all the basics so you can concentrate on the interesting stuff. It's the same with reading; some people think that exclusive phonics instruction is boring, but it teaches children to read, and once they can read they can read anything in the world they want to.

DD1 has a similar problem in physics in that she can get the right answers because she can do the maths, but she doesn't get the underlying concepts, so hassles her teacher for a "proper explanation please, Sir". He thinks that becasue she's getting it all right, she does know what she's doing, and she can't get him to appredciate that she doesn't for this particualr topic

But singersgirl for some of us, like me, my ds2 and Fimbo's dd the basics are confusing. They don't make sense.

For me, trying to understand the basic designs behind maths is like pouring water on a stone. It makes a mark, but it's fluid, it doesn't stick, it just slopes off and runs away. And I actually consider myself to be an intelligent person I'm not proud of this and I don't think it's smart.

I am learning a lot from ds1 though. I asked him the other week 'look exactly what is a prime number?' and he explained. I said 'and what's the point of it?' and he shrugged and said 'it just is.' Well, I get that.

Oh sorry, didn't mean to lump Fimbo's dd in with us.

Ah, well, I kind of understand that, as I find reading things like 'A Brief History of Time' have the water on a stone effect you describe. It's a bit like 'Colourless green ideas sleep furiously'; it all appears to make sense but probe a bit more deeply and it's baffling.

I must admit that I still don't really understand how the concept of multiplication can be difficult, because it just seems so straightforward. I do understand how remembering number facts can be difficult, though.

DS1 and I were reading about Fibonacci sequences last night in this book called 'The Number Devil'. I find we both feel pleasantly drowsy after it.

Please do ahundredtimes

She just can't seem to grasp it. She can recite 8 times off to me this week, but by next week will have forgotten it again.

But surprisingly she is not in the bottom group for maths she is in the middle. The school say she is where she should be for her age. She has her Sats this year and the maths teacher is putting the fear of god into them. He is a computer buff and does the marking on screen (don't ask me how) he highlights and underlines the weaker children's scores. My dd wants to move down a group to the bottom because she is scared of him, but dh and i don't feel that would be right.

Oh yes, someone recommended that book for ds1. Is it good?

I think it is hard sometimes to understand just what other people don't understand in maths. In the case of me and ds2 - but NOT Fimbo's dd or Boco's dd - you just have to think of us as being UNBELIEVABLY THICK. Is the only way imo.