What happens when a school can’t meet a child’s needs?

[tiddlerislate]

Child is in reception but repeating the year. Severely autistic and non verbal, not toilet trained. He has an EHCP.

Parents want him to attend the local primary school but they have expressed concern they can’t meet his needs. I guess I’m asking what happens then - whose views bear most weight? Can parents insist he attends the school they want him to?

@anonhop you seem weirdly preoccupied with two (entirely fictional, ime) scenarios in which inclusion causes detriment to NT children.

First, SEN children’s inability to participate in trips/experiences resulting in the opportunity being taken away from everyone. The law requires reasonable adjustments to be made to facilitate the SEN child’s participation, recognizing that he/she is already at a serious disadvantage compared to others. The law does not require anything to be withdrawn if SEN children’s participation can’t be reasonably facilitated, nor should it. The weaponisation of “equality” that you seem to be complaining about is essential to ensure that the children with additional needs are given the same opportunities as their peers. Nobody on this thread (or indeed anywhere) is advocating for anything else. Your “won’t somebody think of the NT children” approach just seems backwards, in this context.

Second, the risk of “violence” from certain children (who, in reality, may or may not be ND). I have already explained, as the mother of a frequently dysregulated autistic child, why I think that is being spectacularly overstated, especially in the context of primary school children. Either way, the solution is not to throw the “inclusion” baby out with the “safety” bathwater. It is to ensure that there are enough suitably ND trained staff, and ideally that they pre-empt any dysregulation in the first place by managing the school environment with ND people in mind. That seems much more achievable than the sudden appearance of enough specialist school places for all who would benefit. For the reasons already explained, the idea that specialist provision is going to step-up and alleviate the current pinch points in mainstream is for the birds.

And suggesting that you are “discussing differences in support and structures” is somewhat revisionist. You’ve suggested several times that inclusion in mainstream activities should only be facilitated where it does not inconvenience the NT children. I happen to disagree. But that’s not really the point, because inclusion is what we’re getting, irrespective of what any of us think. There is no viable alternative.

@Vinvertebrate the 2 scenarios just aren't fictional though, are they?

Both happen. I'm not suggesting they happen all the time. They are the more extreme examples of when SEN support isn't in place. But they are starting to happen more and more.

You're also agreeing with me in scenario 1. I think reasonable adjustments should be made to enable all children to participate. My point was a teacher further up the thread saying that because the support isn't in place, everyone misses out. My point is that the support should be in place or if it literally isn't possible, then alternative provision should be provided. How is that offending you?!

In scenario 2, I am in no way blaming the SEN children who do sadly lash out due to the distress they are experiencing. It's utterly heartbreaking & I do have experience of this. It can't be allowed to go on because everyone is entitled to be safe at school- both SEN kids and NT. So again, everything should be done to enable safe participation in mainstream but if that's impossible then alternative provision should be provided.

I understand funding constraints. We need more funding but also different approaches. Your point seems to be that because there's no funding, it will always be shit so don't you dare bring it up in case it upsets SEN families?! That simply isn't good enough. SEN kids need more support & we need to highlight these more extreme cases to prevent it getting worse. It's not othering or shaming SEN kids for saying so.

I just don't understand what you're disagreeing about. We need better support for SEN children in mainstream for the sake of SEN kids, NT kids, staff & families. That just shouldn't be controversial.

BTW I haven't been revisionist, I think you misunderstood my point and are realising that we actually agree and you don't want to admit you came out all guns blazing.

@Vinvertebrate also on your last point, I am certainly not suggesting that inconveniencing NT kids is a good enough reason to exclude SEN kids. You know I'm not arguing that & you're being disingenuous there, which doesn't help whatever point you think you're making. I'm talking about the physical safety of children, not their convenience.

There is really no need to be so scummy.

No mainstream is going to teach conversational skills. And no, children don't just magically pick it up by being around other children. It is a taught skill that is mostly taught by parents in the early years, and developed during childhood.

If a child has not been able to learn conversational skills from parents before starting school due to a learning disability, there is even less chance of magically picking it up in a mainstream school. They need explicit modelling, teaching and purposeful practice, which a specialist school can accommodate but a mainstream cannot.

No oxymoron. Children do learn conversational skills from interacting with adults. All children. Not just SEN children.

It's not surprising specialist schools are not leaders in league tables for GCSES. But in a high coin specialist, if a child is able to do a GCSE ahead of Y11, they are able to accommodate that. State mainstream are forbidden from teaching (and therefore entering for GCSE) out of year group.

Worrying about my DC getting abused because 2 random schools have had somebody accused of abuse worries me a hell of a lot less than if she was in mainstream where peer on peer abuse would be almost guaranteed due to her needs.

I have fought DCs corner for years to get her a suitable education and help her development in all aspects, including socially. If I had forced her to stay in mainstream against expert advice, I would be neglecting her needs and failing her as a parent. Anyone who does that would be/is.

Would you ignore a dr's advice on a diabetic taking insulin because someone with a functioning pancreas might teach them how to produce insulin? No. Leaning disability is a medical issue. I trust the trained experts, not Dr Google. (And definitely not the LA!)

@anonhop I am neither "offended" nor "all guns blazing". Meeting my disabled child's needs does not leave me enough energy to get aggravated by anyone's bleating on MN. I am simply pointing out that I think your approach is wrong-headed.

You don't seem to have either evidence or anecdote of either physical violence by ND children or NT children being denied golden opportunities because "equality" (other than "what a teacher posted upthread"). In addition to being hyperbolic, these tropes are harmful to children like my DS, and it is quite reasonable to challenge them.

I don't think the starting position should always be mainstream with support. There are many kids for whom that would be wholly inappropriate. My own ds was so profoundly autistic - non verbal and challenging even in a nursery class - that putting him in a mainstream school would have been very detrimental to him and to others. My dd started out in mainstream with 1.1 support. By year 3 she was completely lost and the teacher was having to give her reception level work while the class were learning about the romans and main clauses. Her peers were 'looking after' her like they would a younger sibling. She was lashing out and was unhappy. She needed a specialist placement. It wasn't the school's fault that she was inappropriately placed. I had a wake up call and had to accept the reality. She ended up in a specialist school where she thrived. Sometimes parents do need to change their views and accept a reality they don't want to see. Sometimes it's the LA or the school that won't accept the reality.

I think that we need to understand that mainstream schools do not have enough staff or funding to supervise closely all the social interactions of students who have challenging behaviour and very delayed social skills. They can't provide enough small groups or teach children who are very delayed whilst everyone else is two or three years ahead of the child with send.

The original OP question was about what happens when a school can't meet need. The answer should be that the school or the parent calls a review or makes a request for an alternative, more appropriate provision. Instead as always on any send thread, it results in a row.

It's so sad that these threads always end up a mess.

There is no 'one size fits all' and the educational system is largely broken due to increased pressure on teachers, changes to the curriculum, lack of funding and teaching assistants and an increase in awareness of, and diagnosis of Neurodivergent conditions.

It's nobody's fault (apart from recent governments) and of course everyone is going to fight for their own child's needs.

My DD is Autistic and struggling in Mainstream. She can't tolerate other Neurodivergent kids due to her anxiety. She can't concentrate due to the noise level in her mainstream class. The teachers can't cope. There's too much shouting, too many needs not being met, years long waiting lists for diagnoses of Neurodivergent conditions and parents screaming that their kids needs are more important.

I was a child of the 70s who was ignored due to a severely disabled sibling. I managed school (just) but it scarred me. I was diagnosed with Autism at 51 and ADHD at 53. I recently looked back at my school reports and they are actually quite scary as they paint a definite picture of a child not coping. In these times I'd have been given additional support for sure, but that support just cannot be met fully for everyone anymore, so it tends to either be a lottery or go to those who shout loudest.

My sister was non verbal, unable to walk and had downs syndrome. She was the only 'type' that went to a special school in my day.

I wasn't at that level and neither is my DD, but that doesn't mean to say that we don't have major struggles. I've recently researched the best school for my DD (god how I wish my parents had done the same) and I'm going to tribunal next week to fight for this. Everyone just has to do the best for their own child.

We are in an educational crisis, and fighting among ourselves isn't solving anything.

@Vinvertebrate I'm glad you've realised that we are wanting the same thing which is the best support possible for all children & in particular those with SEN/ND.

All the best for you & your child- it's not an easy road to navigate & I'm sure you're doing a great job - I really do mean that.

I have been quite shocked at what has been written on these posts.
Navigating the school system is hard. Most specialist schools won’t accept an application without an EHCP or diagnosis. So what is meant to happen with these children who have neither?
You do not know what the parent is going through. I would quite happily attend school trips or ask a trusted family member to attend school trips.
My child has thrived at nursery and he is well liked by other children and staff. Never had any complaints regarding his behaviour. How am I to know how that will translate when he goes to school?

I don’t think it’s a pile on, I think people are trying to explain what the reality is ,for schools, teachers, pupils, parents and most importantly the children who deserve to thrive and achieve in fully funded, properly staffed schools that actually meet their needs. If that is a mainstream school then that is great, but all too often the provision is inadequate because the schools aren’t funded, the staff aren’t trained and the buildings themselves don’t work well.