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A "Greater Depth Table" - children aware of

87 replies

everychildmatters · 02/12/2024 18:32

So I'm an experienced primary teacher and today went for an interview for a part-time class teacher. I didn't get it but for a number of reasons feel relieved as I don't think the school would have been the right fit for me.
Something I wanted to ask opinions on...
It was for a Y3 class. One of the children in the class came up to me and pointed to one of the tables and said: "That table is only for the Greater Depth children, only they are allowed to sit at that table."
The Head also said I would only have half of the class and that the "other children who may be difficult" would be taken elsewhere. I felt they were being hidden.
None of these sit comfortably with me but what do others think?
The school are incredibly proud of their SATs results with something like 97% achieving GD in English.

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BlitheSpirits · 03/12/2024 16:14

Autistic children would have probably found it unsettling to be taughtt by several unfamiliar teachers over the course of a day, and so the decision was made to remove all the children with SEN. I am surprised as an experienced teacher you don't get that.

everychildmatters · 03/12/2024 21:58

@BlitheSpirits My adult brother is himself autistic so I am fully aware of that, thanks. I'd be surprised if 15 learners in the class were autistic or with significant SEN need, however.
How.long have you been teaching?

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WaitingForMojo · 03/12/2024 22:09

everychildmatters · 02/12/2024 19:13

@NicoleSkidman I'm not a fan personally, especially when the other children explicitly knew only the GD children could sit there.
Would you think the same for a "Not working at expected level" table.
There is also no TA to support so not sure how the class teacher alone can meet all of the needs of everyone if separated like that.

Edited

My DD’s school has a table for the kids needing extra support. It’s because the TA sits with them. The children do all know they sit there because they need more help, though.

I don’t love the sound of the school you were interviewed at!!

StandingSideBySide · 04/12/2024 04:43

WaitingForMojo · 03/12/2024 22:09

My DD’s school has a table for the kids needing extra support. It’s because the TA sits with them. The children do all know they sit there because they need more help, though.

I don’t love the sound of the school you were interviewed at!!

Not liking the sound of that table at your kids school either.
How very very sad for those kids to be so singled out.
I can hear what the classroom bullies will be shouting at them.
It’s just Horrid, I can’t believe schools do this to kids

User37482 · 04/12/2024 06:57

I think kids probably know anyway tbh. Dd is very able and they do differentiated work, my preference is for her to sit with children who will allow her to get on with her own thing, I don’t care if those kids are doing the same work as her, harder or easier. Well behaved and nice to sit next to is basically all I care about.

There are a few kids who aren’t very nice who I would be very upset about her sitting next to because she thinks they are bullies but otherwise as long as she’s going at her own pace and is getting stretch I’m not fussed about what other kids are doing. There is a problem with quiet children, especially girls,being sat next to badly behaved kids according to a few threads on here. That would be a problem for me.

I do see though why it is easier for teacher to group by tables. Especially when you are setting differentiated work or having to provide enhanced support.

I would also say people have a particular thing about academics, they are comfortable with kids being really good at sport and everyone knowing about it. But being academically able is seen as something different. Every kid will know who the fastest runner is and there isn’t the same level of caution around that, no-ones thinking “oh all the kids will see that Leah is the fastest and it’ll make them feel bad”.

Having said that I do prefer an environment which doesn’t set children up to rank themselves or each other (I do think thats a bit toxic). They should always be competing against themselves rather than others.

CatkinToadflax · 04/12/2024 07:27

DS1 (supposedly) had 1:1 support, but because he was quiet and well behaved the 1:1 found herself being asked to help other children instead. This resulted in DS simply not learning and also becoming a target for bullying.

DS2 should have been given greater depth work, but because he was summer born they refused to give it to him. As a result he started to behave badly.

The school was rated Ofsted Outstanding, incidentally.

For multiple reasons regarding DS1’s disability and the way the school treated him, we moved schools. The different way of teaching in the new school was a better fit for both of my boys. It was a two form intake, and for English and maths they put the children into ability groups spread across both classes. Therefore the children needing more help were in a different room, and taught at a slightly different pace, to those working in greater depth.

APurpleSquirrel · 04/12/2024 07:29

I'd be interested to know, if you don't agree with sitting similar level children together, how in a class of 30, with one teacher & maybe one TA, you can offer additional support to those who need it & stretch to those who want/able etc, if they are spread across the room?
Surely If those who need or benefit from additional support (not talking one-to-ones) are grouped together the teacher and/or TA can provide that attention & focus?

SushiGo · 04/12/2024 08:14

I don't agree with ability tables because I feel it limits opportunity for all of the students, both GD and WT.

As I said my GD kid is often sat with ND children that need help to concentrate. From that she gets opportunities to articulate and breakdown what she is doing in order to explain them to someone else - GD kids often lose marks on tests because they don't bother writing the steps they took to reach an answer down. She is learning the point of doing that. She also gets a bit of perspective, empathy, fun and time spent with other people who think differently and have other ideas. Neither of these things take up that much time - but it's not a good thing for GD kids to just crack on silently, they need that time talking about ideas just as much as anyone else, so they are a real positive.

It's generally useful for the ND kids because she keeps them on track... Now, in fairness, my kid has ND siblings so they are used to viewing people with SEN and their contribution positively. The teachers are also quite considered about who they pair up and where they direct their or the TAs attention. I have never once had my child come home and complain about who they are sat with.

In terms of her ability to stretch, she is in mixed year classes so everything is always set up on a 'at your own pace' basis, and she has constant access to additional materials and challenges once the set work is done. Because this set up is for everyone, the children who are not working at GD also have access to these materials and if they hit a topic they get on well with also have the opportunity to try something more challenging, regardless of what level they are deemed to be at.

I don't believe it's a good thing for only certain tables to have access to challenging materials either. It's very limiting towards most of the class, who might be perfectly capable of doing more if given the opportunity.

Legomania · 04/12/2024 10:05

As I said my GD kid is often sat with ND children that need help to concentrate. From that she gets opportunities to articulate and breakdown what she is doing in order to explain them to someone else - GD kids often lose marks on tests because they don't bother writing the steps they took to reach an answer down. She is learning the point of doing that. She also gets a bit of perspective, empathy, fun and time spent with other people who think differently and have other ideas. Neither of these things take up that much time - but it's not a good thing for GD kids to just crack on silently, they need that time talking about ideas just as much as anyone else, so they are a real positive.

@SushiGo I would never have a problem with my GD kid sitting with someone who is ND in and of itself but it has to work for both.

My DS was placed next to a boy (they sit in pairs) whose concentration issues mean he talks constantly (not about the lesson) and rather than DS helping him focus, DS was starting to get upset about the constant interruptions to his work. DS doesn't want to work silently but he does want to engage with the work. Luckily the teacher moved him before we needed to request it.

His new partner is (I think) both ND and GD and this works well as the second boy, despite also having some struggles with attention, also wants to engage with the work

NicoleSkidman · 04/12/2024 16:45

CatkinToadflax · 04/12/2024 07:27

DS1 (supposedly) had 1:1 support, but because he was quiet and well behaved the 1:1 found herself being asked to help other children instead. This resulted in DS simply not learning and also becoming a target for bullying.

DS2 should have been given greater depth work, but because he was summer born they refused to give it to him. As a result he started to behave badly.

The school was rated Ofsted Outstanding, incidentally.

For multiple reasons regarding DS1’s disability and the way the school treated him, we moved schools. The different way of teaching in the new school was a better fit for both of my boys. It was a two form intake, and for English and maths they put the children into ability groups spread across both classes. Therefore the children needing more help were in a different room, and taught at a slightly different pace, to those working in greater depth.

Edited

Why would they refuse to give him GD woke because he was summer born? I’d be surprised if the teacher even knew when his birthday was.

CatkinToadflax · 04/12/2024 17:00

NicoleSkidman · 04/12/2024 16:45

Why would they refuse to give him GD woke because he was summer born? I’d be surprised if the teacher even knew when his birthday was.

They had two groups which were completely arranged by age, so yes they did know when his birthday was. It didn’t make sense to me.

everychildmatters · 04/12/2024 17:01

My eldest is summer-born. He's got an interview next week at Trinity College to read maths. He also lives across two homes.
I absolutely would not accept that either of these were going to hold him back.

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