A "Greater Depth Table" - children aware of

[everychildmatters]

So I'm an experienced primary teacher and today went for an interview for a part-time class teacher. I didn't get it but for a number of reasons feel relieved as I don't think the school would have been the right fit for me.
Something I wanted to ask opinions on...
It was for a Y3 class. One of the children in the class came up to me and pointed to one of the tables and said: "That table is only for the Greater Depth children, only they are allowed to sit at that table."
The Head also said I would only have half of the class and that the "other children who may be difficult" would be taken elsewhere. I felt they were being hidden.
None of these sit comfortably with me but what do others think?
The school are incredibly proud of their SATs results with something like 97% achieving GD in English.

@Sherrystrull Exactly my point. So why remove them for interview?

It would be a major concern for me that they're trying to lull you in with a small and easily teachable class then present half a dozen child with significant needs and no TA then expect you to cope.

@Sherrystrull Exactly. And I'm 21 years in with a significant amount of SEN experience and a number of years working in a PRU!!
I also think they may focus on the GD which is great, but not at the detriment of those expected/less able. Perhaps why they get such incredible results?

Giving them more challenging work?

The putting them at the back thing is funny. My two best friends and I had a trick we used every September. We'd sit ourselves in the middle of the front row, right in front of the teacher's desk, and sit straight upright listening to every word all lesson. Then, at the end of the first week of term, the teachers in each class, without fail, would make us swap with some rowdy underachievers at the back and we got to sit together doing whatever we wanted (quietly) for the rest of the year.

We all got high grades, of course, just never paid any attention in class after the first week.

@Cableknitdreams If only it was that simple. Yes they are are given challenges/extension tasks as routine. But sitting them at the back and expecting them to always work independently definitely isn't the answer.

We are very proud but I think most of all they’ve all very much followed their natural interests.
I didn’t mention what the other twin is doing because it might be outing but it’s a very different non science subject unlike the others and so they have all followed a natural path.
Without expectations from anyone.
We re happy they are happy.
The world of work is a long one and more than anything we wanted them to spend it doing something they were passionate about

As we are.

I think you're missing my point. The teaching bit of the interview isn't really for your benefit.
We've all taught individual children who've needed particularly careful handling. I couldn't risk some of the careful work I'd done being ruined by an otherwise good teacher who simply didn't know their triggers. Not could I risk the vulnerable or problematic children themselves becoming disregulated by someone coming in to teach a half hour lesson and unwittingly setting them off.

Come off it - the children always know when they’re grouped by ability whether or not the teacher mentions it.

@saraclara 15 of them?!!

Definitely a ton of red flags for me...

What do they mean by 'English'? If they mean writing I simply wouldn't believe them. Not doing this generation a disservice but they'd have to be bending the rules somehow to get 97% of a class through writing moderation at GD.

Training for new teachers now makes it clear that 'tables' should not be obvious or labelled, and that every child should have a chance of being in a focus group with the teacher once a week, whether that's to help them catch up or stretch them. Bad practice by the school if you ask me - how crap are the non-GD children going to feel?

Well said
Thank goodness training for new teachers is addressing this

@AtomHeartMotherOfGod @standingsidebyside I've been in the job almost 21 years and I couldn't agree more.
But you will always get parents that want their child sitting on that GD table and heavily supported. And it was very, very clear that the child knew exactly who was Greater Depth; he announced so loudly in front of the rest of the class.
I felt bad for the non GD children; as if they were pushed aside.
As someone who had their confidence entirely and utterly shredded by an English teacher once (top set - she stood up in front of the whole class and literally mocked my accompanying illustrations to a text I'd created) I know just a tiny bit of how it feels.
Apologies - I meant in writing at end of KS2 SATS. She was incredibly proud of this.
I see every single day the impact of poor mental health and/or low self-esteem our young people and very keen indeed that this isn't overlooked.
I didn't feel I mattered as a person today at that school and it is just the little things sometimes. I'd taught a 30 min lesson then went straight into my 30 min interview without even so much as being offered a drink of water.
I'm pleased I wasn't offered the job on reflection.

"Apologies - I meant in writing at end of KS2 SATS. She was incredibly proud of this."

Well she should be, if it is real, but I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall watching how they got the evidence to back those results. Honestly, if I was moderating that school I'd whip 10 students out of class, give them 20 minutes to write a mini-story from a selection of given starters, 10 mins to edit, and then seen how they did. I'd be astounded if all of them managed GD.

From Your last post OP I can see you care so much about the kids at the back that are told they’re not good enough.
What a horrible system that pushes others to the front and tells them they are the best and more worthy.
Shame on the system and shame on those that don’t call it out.
every child matters…..

Wouldn’t it make more sense to seat all the children at individual desks so they could concentrate properly, not distract each other, and keep their things inside the desk? A small group area could be used for reading groups and such. Then all children would be facing front and see the board properly.

Of course there focus is going to be on 97% of pupils. How big was this school buy the way?

@standingsidebyside Thank you. I care passionately that the classrooms I teach on will be inclusive and nobody will be made to feel like I was.
I've always felt not good enough, that I'm not smart enough, that I'm not enough. That's had a huge impact on my MH as an adult which I am convinced started in school.
I'm by no means the perfect teacher but I will always put the individual at the heart of my teaching and I make no apologies for that.
I am considering leaving the profession altogether as I'm so bloody tired but my God will I miss the kids.

Is 97% are getting greater depth (which doesn’t seem to be possible based on the dfe stats) there wouldn’t be a need for a greater depth table.

For what it’s worth - I’d love a classroom set up where my daughter wasn’t being used as crowd control and largely ignored to just crack on. I’ve now reached a point where I’m just teaching her concepts myself now. Her class is very challenging re behaviour and I just don’t think anyone is actually being taught anything.

Agree with you here. It’s nice they are being pushed! Pretty rare right now. The rest of the class should have access to challenge work too though if appropriate.

I think the concept of a greater depth table, which other children are not only aware of but freely label as such (which has sure come from somewhere..), is hideous. Of course it's potentially damaging, for all children in that class.

I say this as a parent of two "greater depth" children (whatever that means - they're completely different to each other).

Their school has a huge range of ability including many very able children as well as those who struggle, plus a higher than average proportion of SEN - including one of my kids. It teaches to the top, not the middle, in a mixed ability approach that delivers results and most importantly, enthusiasm and good self esteem for all kids.

This doesn't mean the kids don't pick up on who finds things easier etc; but as another poster pointed out, this is often as much about who is self confident and chatty as much as what's happening on paper. The focus is on giving things a go and being curious, challenging yourself, wherever you're at.

Well the other 15 are probably being kept below key stage so dont sit sats which is how they get so high GD.
I think GD tables probably are a good idea. As exchanging ideas etc. But oldest in year generally do better so hard for youngest to move up tables.
Op i dont think its comparable if your dc were in mixed year classes as naturally most years they would have been very extended!
My eldest could have gone to y2 from halfway through reception for reading. But maths wasnt taught well and she dropped back in that.
Part of it is that they give kids challenge and extra challenge work. But that is based on speed (and motivation) of which she has neither despite later being capable of 120 on y6 SATs. Ideally work woukd be given to slower but bright kids that starts on the harder work so they arent missing out all the time.
Individualised homework would be great too. Wasting time doing easier work

Also its not 'ability' its current attainment. Often teachers have no idea of pupils actual full potential.

Education needs more people like you OP to fight the good fight and stop this madness
Parents need to be more invested in this too, for the sake of ALL childrens mental health, self preservation and ultimately achieving the best they can.

@wtftodo s childrens school has the right attitude with the right outcomes for everyone and very importantly clearly supported by wtftodo and hopefully the other parents too.
Parents and teachers need to be onboard for the children and equality.

You sound like a really lovely teacher OP and I can see why you would have been uncomfortable.

Just to balance out some of the comments my GD kid has been in mixed year group classes all the way through primary and almost always sat with ND kids that may struggle with concentration.

She is doing great, has broken the reading level record at her school and is expected to do very well in her SATs.

I know it doesn't work for every kid - but I am a believer that there are lots of advantages in not putting all the GD kids together.

You sound like a really lovely teacher OP and I can see why you would have been uncomfortable.

Just to balance out some of the comments my GD kid has been in mixed year group classes all the way through primary and almost always sat with ND kids that may struggle with concentration.

She is doing great, has broken the reading level record at her school and is expected to do very well in her SATs.

I know it doesn't work for every kid - but I am a believer that there are lots of advantages in not putting all the GD kids together.

Sorry for double post! Not sure what happened.