A "Greater Depth Table" - children aware of

[everychildmatters]

So I'm an experienced primary teacher and today went for an interview for a part-time class teacher. I didn't get it but for a number of reasons feel relieved as I don't think the school would have been the right fit for me.
Something I wanted to ask opinions on...
It was for a Y3 class. One of the children in the class came up to me and pointed to one of the tables and said: "That table is only for the Greater Depth children, only they are allowed to sit at that table."
The Head also said I would only have half of the class and that the "other children who may be difficult" would be taken elsewhere. I felt they were being hidden.
None of these sit comfortably with me but what do others think?
The school are incredibly proud of their SATs results with something like 97% achieving GD in English.

So happy to know that my kids didn’t have to put up with knowing they weren’t of greater depth or gifted and talented. ( All Uni kids now doing Medicine, zoology etc )
How utterly horrible that that little kid knew.
One way to make them feel not clever enough

I agree. Greater depth children are very often forgotten and their needs are not catered too. I can understand why as teachers are stretched in other areas but that just means that GD don't get what they deserve.

@StandingSideBySide

All Uni kids now doing Medicine, zoology etc )

But they were likely greater depth if they have gone on to study medicine 🤷🏻‍♀️

As a former teacher who left when I could see the writing on the wall about ‘inclusive’ classrooms, the OP’s attitude sums up the problem in schools now. Bright children are left to their own devices and it’s almost considered sacrilege to even give them any consideration whatsoever when other children are failing to meet the expectations.

So all the resource goes into managing behaviour and the ones with challenging needs. And those challenges are getting more and more severe in mainstream education.

Actually good schools do have nurture provisions and resource hubs. So those ‘difficult’ children might have been getting far better support out of the classroom that day, than sitting getting deregulated and unruly in an interviewee sample lesson.

GD tables are not a good idea.

As well as children who are GD in everything there are many children who ate GD in some areas, such as telling the time.

All children should have access to and feel they can attempt the GD work.

This is wildly unfair on the GD children.

My child is GD in all areas and I discovered today that she is sat right at the back of the class. Before this latest seating reshuffle she was at a table with two boys who can barely read or write. I think you can guess why the teacher chose to sit them next to her. It drives me mad.

@StandingSideBySide I feel like this too, especially as a parent. My August-born son was GD in maths all the way through primary but he wasn't "segregated" and certainly didn't know at 7 he was GD. He was in a mixed age classes throughout primary; R/1/2 and then 3/4/5/6.
He did OK though as he's predicted 4 A*s at A-Level and has an interview at Trinity College next week.

Yes they probably would work independently. But if the GD table are left to work independently, are they really being challenged sufficiently?

In the same way our dialogue and questioning by working alongside LA/SEND children provides the support to access, move on and record their learning - would you really think leaving GD children independent would be sufficient to move their learning on?

@NicoleSkidman I agree that sitting the GD at the back of the class and leaving them to always work independently isn't a solution.
But what is?

I was wondering that too!

Children know who is on the highest table and who is on the bottom. No ine needs to tell them. The GD thing maybe coming from a parenting talking about different levels.

Actually no.
In terms of The medicine son I was told a few years into school there was ‘something wrong’ with him. Yes they actually said that.

He and his twin were being ignored because they were becoming more and more behind others. We didn’t know why, nothing obvious except twins who were youngest in the year.
We moved school
They then thrived as the teachers had a completely different attitude to teaching. My eldest ( the zoologist ) was top set for everything but the two others were middle (except art and music )

Whilst as children get older they know where they stand, ( they see their friends getting better grades ) mine didn’t see this as youngsters and didn’t know they were middle. Hence they pushed themselves because they always felt they were perfectly capable of everything and the school promoted in many ways lots of confidence.
Their attitude was always I can, never I can’t.
No one was more surprised than us on their GCSE and A level grades given that early start of being ‘labelled’.
Yes they are doing very well at Uni too.

At DS' primary school the teachers often mentioned to me that they'd placed him next to other greater depth achieving children or the one or two who were ahead of him in a subject, so as to challenge him.

He was bored anyway and they did also use him to help children who were misbehaving or struggling, but on the whole I found the teachers were excellent at noticing what individual children needed and doing their best to provide it — albeit with limited resources.

Our school takes a mixed ability approach and seems to be able to support the more able students, as well as those who need extra support. I’m a school governor there so I see the breakdown of the assessment data in detail. My eldest achieved greater depth in her sats and definitely by year 6 the children they knew were likely to get that were aware it was a focus. But they weren’t being sat at a table together or obviously identifiable to the rest of the class. We still have an TA per class and the children who need extra support are often the ones working in small group with the them. But that group varies by subject, so it isn’t an easy to label group children either. My son, for example is included in the handwriting and English group but not the maths one. The school gets great results this way, both in terms of hard data but also the children’s well being and their sense of achievement and progress.

I have had interviewees teach my class, and in mainstream I would absolutely have children with complex behaviours occupied purposefully elsewhere.

An unknown adult who is unaware of their triggers and their behaviour plans could cause havoc, and I wouldn't want either the child or the interviewee put in that position.

@saraclara But if they have significant complex needs, why haven't they got TA support? The normal class of 30 has no TA.

@NicoleSkidman

Before this latest seating reshuffle she was at a table with two boys who can barely read or write.

I don't think there is a perfect solution. If they are mixed up she is next to 2 boys who she can't really work with in a way that will help her to progress. Yet at the back she gets less help. It’s really difficult as a teacher to get things right & make sure everyone is able to make progress.

@StandingSideBySide

Hence they pushed themselves because they always felt they were perfectly capable of everything and the school promoted in many ways lots of confidence.

That sounds like they have done really well. You must be really proud of them & they must have worked really hard.

Surely grouping is the best tactic with limited resources. Let's say you have a core body of the class learning multiplication, a greater depth table doing some long multiplication, and a table doing addition and subtraction. They are all being challenged to an appropriate level. As each table is doing the same thing they can help each other out. You can go to each table and explain long multiplication to the kids struggling on that table once, multiplication on the next table once etc.
If you mix them up you either: get them all to do simple multiplication. Greater depth kids are bored whilst struggling kids will become disillusioned and not learn because it is too hard for them. Or, go around each table explaining long multiplication several times, multiplication several times etc etc. And the kids can't help each other as they are doing different activities. Apart from the greater depth kids being TAs : (
Grouping seems so much more sensible!

@everychildmatters

I honestly don't know the answer. We have a lot of refugee children arriving mid year with no English & have to find a way to get them integrated whilst ensuring the more able make the progress which is appropriate for them. It’s definitely a challenge.

97% GD? Unlikely. I'm an experienced primary teacher and this statistic seems impossible

Not all children with complex behaviours get a TA. Just ask on the special needs board. And of course not all children with difficult behaviour that needs management built around their triggers, actually have a significant special educational need.

If a child is a year behind it isn’t going to help their confidence to have a GD child at at their table. It is going to show them even more how bad they are. Instead of helping them it could make them not bother. Surely it is better for all to be sat with peers of a similar ability

Many many children with complex needs have no TA. This is the reality in schools. If it's not your experience then you e been very lucky so far.

I had one child who was always at GD and one child who was generally at working towards. Both preferred being at a table with other children at their level. DC1 enjoying the intellectual challenge from working with other children as able as she was and it spurred her on to work harder as she wanted to be better than Joshua in maths. DC2 liked the fact that the teacher would sit with them and explain it in a bit more detail, that they could help each other and that Lucy, the very able girl he was usually partnered with in mixed groups, didn't sigh at him so much and get frustrated. It was also the set up in which he learned the most.

@Goldenmemories Yes I was incredibly surprised when she announced that to me during my look around.
@saraclara Unfortunately I'm all too aware of this. But giving me half a class of the well-behaved kids for interview isn't a true representation of how it is.