Typical proportion of children working at 'greater depth' in a class

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I wondered if any teachers could tell me what proportion of children in a class you would typically expect to be working 'at greater depth' and what proportion at 'age related expectations'? I am just trying to get a feel for where my daughter is in relation to her peers when she is mostly at 'age related expectations' (she gets the occasional 'greater depth' in something)?

Until year 6, any measures of greater depth or expected are purely school based, each will have their own idea as to what this looks like. So greater depth in one school might be different to greater depth in another!
In year 6, last year reading was 73% expected or above with 29% over 110 so greater depth
Maths was 73% and 24% respectively
Grammar was 72% and 30%
And writing was 71% and 13%

At our very normal state primary in a very ‘normal’ area (basically class is a good mix of people) I’d say when sats results come out it’s generally 10-20%.

It is important to remember that that 2014 curriculum is more challenging than primary education before so children that get age related are still doing incredibly well, my DS got in the higher end of meeting age related for maths and was doing the same maths I did in set 1 of year 7 in the 90s!

How long is a piece of string? It totally depends on the area, type of school and the cohort of children.

Without wishing to sound stereotypical, a leafy green village is statistically more likely to have more children working at GD than a school in an area of high deprivation. High SEN needs in a year group will obviously affect this though, so even in the same school it will fluctuate each year, as every class of children is different.

It's not healthy to try and compare your daughter to her peers. Working at ARE is good. If you're keen for her to progress to GD, by all means ask the school what you can do to support her, but it doesn't matter where she is in relation to her peers (that kind of pressure can really affect a child's mental health) and it's important to accept that, even with all the support and extra input in the world, some children may never achieve GD in reading, writing, maths etc and that's ok. Their talents are obviously in other areas, such as drama, art, music or sports.

It's great that you have high ambitions for your daughter, but be mindful that this doesn't translate to unnecessary pressure.

Also, as above, it depends on how old she is as to what you mean by GD as, unless scored through a statutory assessment, it's teacher judgement.

Some schools will list the children at the top of the class as their 'greater depth children', simply because they're achieving higher than their peers. Compared to their same age peers across the country, they may be distinctly average. Likewise a child judged as working at age related expectations in one school could be 'better' at that subject than a child at a different school who is considered to be greater depth. It can be quite subjective.

I'm Early Years, but when we go to moderation we can debate at length whether a piece of writing is 'expected' or not, with many feeling it's not but other people arguing why they believe it is. It can be infuriating how differently some professionals interpret the guidance, despite having the same training.

It also depends how different schools approach their data. It's not unusual for some to massage the facts to bump children up in year groups where it is simply down to teacher judgement, whereas others will be more realistic. My personal experience is that schools in deprived areas are more likely to accept their data for what it is, knowing they can justify it, whereas there is more pressure for good data in leafy suburbs and villages, so there's more pressure to tweak the data accordingly for those cuspy children who are just on the verge of expected. Personally, I'd rather be honest to ensure they get more support (which they clearly still need) in Year 1. It was a huge reason why I chose to leave my last school as the pressure to put children through as expected, who simply weren't, was too much.

I’d be interested to see the statistics you refer to about rural schools. What I’ve read is clear that what affects outcomes for children is poverty. If you assume that only rich people live in the country, or indeed that all rural areas are leafy, this is mistaken

No, I don't assume there isn't poverty in rural areas. We obviously have a different definition of 'leafy'. To me, a 'leafy' area has always refered to affluent. Sorry if I confused you.

Regardless of terminology, my point still stands. Certain schools will naturally produce higher GD results than others simply due to circumstances.

Dc1 never got GD inmaths until they allowed her it after getting 115 on ks2 sats.
Basically half her year got GD over 110 on maths so they were never impressed with dd.
And going to secondary shes gone into set 4/9.
There was a lot of kids with high sats.
However it was that the prmiary were giving extra lessons to some kids from y3.
And a lot of sats practise many kids have dropped back at secondary as they arent good at the harder topics

I thought before SATs it was subjective but in yr 6 over 110 would be GD?

Our primary has high SATS 35% GD on average but parents do a lot of external tutoring.

On the other end, what proportion would you expect to receive working towards expectation? That’s where my son is currently at. An august baby, I thought he was doing really well but got told at parents evening he is not quite at the standard expected.

I'm teaching Year 3 this year (after many years in Year 2).

My current class (28 children) are made up of 50% of my old Year 2s and 50% of the parallel 'old' Y2s.

Writing: I have one girl who 'may' with a strong wind and a very intense handwriting intervention, be GD by summer term.

Reading: 4/28 children (3 girls/1 boy).

Maths: 3/28 - 2 girls/1 boy)

It's a really high bar to get GD now and even EXP is hard, especially in writing! Our overall EXP and above for writing in this current Y3 cohort is 49% (which is 2% higher than last year 😔)

Higher Learning Potential children normally hit 110 on SATs with the real talented ones getting 115+. Those are your GD students that will depend largely on the demographic of the cohort.

Our local High schools have roughly one top set each aiming for 7-9s. And the Further Maths teaching is pooled and taught remotely across 6 schools because there are only 5 or so students per school invited to take it.

We used to have more children with scores between 80 -95 the Working towards children many with reading ages of 6/7 at 11 than we did High Learning Potential, most of those children had diagnosed Additional Learning needs and made some good progress once they had support in place or had experienced adverse childhood experiences or both. We would have at least 1 sometimes 2 Nurture groups and for many of these Grading 1-3 at GCSE was an achievement.

However, if you lived in a more affluent area / one where education is more valued I'd expect this number to be far higher. Whilst there is natural ability at play alot of achievement is through enjoying learning, valuing it and reading, modeling and engaged parents. It isnt necessarily a money thing but that doesn't hurt either.

ARE are just fine and don't need pushing unless you think there is an issue.

These expectations are for the end of the academic year and we’re not yet a third of the way through.

You need more information from the class teacher: Is DS happy, trying hard, making progress and, at this stage, in line to reach end of year or key stage expectations by the end of the year? If not, what is school putting in place to support him and what should you be doing at home?

It really varies by subject and school.

Reading is easier to meet GD in, I have found, when looking at my own children (one was much better than the other but both GD); their school's demographic was mainly 'comfortable middle class' and about 60-70% attained GD for reading (I worked there too, so knew the data).

It's harder to get GD for Maths as not only do you need to get things right, but you also have to show skill and efficiency in calculations (although to be fair, you have to show this for EXS at KS1) - things like working out 39 x 8 by doing 40 x 8 - 8, and applying mathematical knowledge to reasoning questions. I'd say in their classes about 15-30% would make GDS. My DS was marked EXS at KS1, despite getting all but three questions wrong in his SATS, as he didn't show that kind of flexible maths brain in class.

GD in writing is the hardest to attain, as you need to be technically proficient (so virtually all punctuation and grammar accurate, and almost all spellings on the lists up to Y6 correct; these include many words regularly misspelled by adults), but also have expressive writing that also utilises things like pronouns and synonyms to ensure there's flow and cohesion. I'd say if properly assessed, 5-10% of a class like in my kids' school would attain this.

If your class demographic includes more children with barriers to learning, the figures will be lower or much lower. Maybe say, 15-20%, 10-15%, 2-5%.

Their date of birth is taken into account on official assessments. The results are standardised and adjusted for month and year of birth.
Some assessments very subjective though. These are more about what the teacher thinks.

"Their date of birth is taken into account on official assessments. The results are standardised and adjusted for month and year of birth." This isn't true for any official assessment tests at all, except for 11+ in areas which still have it. Are you confusing SAS (standardised age score, 11+/CAT) with scaled scores (ks1/2 sats)?

If you mean end of reception, 67% of children nationally achieved a ‘good level of development’(GLD) in 2023-2024.

No it isn't. KS2 SATs results are purely based on scores in the tests, as are GCSEs/A Levels. I work in year 6 and we don't pay any attention to DOB when assessing the children, but tbh we have lots of higher attainers with summer birthdays, as well as children with autumn birthdays that are working below.

Depends on the school- in my child’s prep class they all were bar one or two. Rest all got grammar places.

A Prep is the ultimate definition of leafy lane though. Look at a school that is Ofsted Inadequate and you might see a different set of attainments.

Yes absolutely. It is a bell curve.

@AtomHeartMotherOfGod can I ask how you know what your child’s SAT scores were?

”My DS was marked EXS at KS1, despite getting all but three questions wrong in his SATS, as he didn't show that kind of flexible maths brain in class.”

my child is KS2 now and I’ve not been told anything. Is it normal to be informed? All I’ve been told is that she is ARE for everything except reading which is GD. She loves learning and is self motivated. But the school doesn’t report on SATs- they say that they’re for the schools benefit only. I don’t even know what they are and child didn’t even tell me they happened, so wasn’t aware until weeks later.

Why are posters on this thread saying kids have tutoring for year 6 SATs? Why would they need this? I feel very poorly informed.

Our school is predominantly middle class in affluent area, very diverse ethically, little deprivation. No grammar schools but lots of good independent schools (which our kids will not be going to!)

Everything that @BoleynMemories13 has said.

It is a meaningless thing for you to know.
What is helpful, is knowing what your dd can do, and what her next steps are. It is of no consequence to you to know what Matilda and Tarquin are, or aren't able to do.

When I was a teacher, I'd average 1-6 children working at greater depth across the board. And then another couple who were either GD just in one subject or who showed flashes of GD in one or more occasionally but not enough to confidently label them. ARE is still a pretty high bar to clear though, so I would be happy if my child was meeting that.

I'd be measuring it based on observations in class, marking work against the NC criteria and doing formal assessments where the children did different papers according to their abilities. I was never a Year 6 teacher though, so can't speak as to whether these children did officially get GD in SATS.

How old is your son ?

@Wahoobafoo

"
Why are posters on this thread saying kids have tutoring for year 6 SATs? Why would they need this? I feel very poorly informed."

In our area, it's not that kids are tutored for SATS specifically but many have been tutored for the 11+