Kids excluded... pls help

[KidsEatSleepWorkRepeat]

Hi All,
First time posting on here as I really don't know where to turn... sorry of its all over the place I'm just trying ro get everything out!!
So a bit of background, mum of 3, age B5, G9 ,G13. I have a partner who lives in his own house who has his own kids similar ages to my younger ones.
Anyway... school....My youngest started school in September (all my children have attended the same private nursery since age 1 and still attend, they dont experience the behaviourlike school, odd moments but nothing major) he's been excluded on numerous occasions for lashing out at teachers and throwing things around the classroom... totally unacceptable (I agree) problem I have is he's the most loving, funny,caring child and loves learning about new things and listens at home and rarely is a bother but his behaviour at school is crazy... they send him home he loves spending time with me, I'm constantly having to leave work which is really affecting me I'm worries I'm going to end up jobless and homeless due to school not been able to handle the behaviour. Don't get me wrong he has his moments at home as do all kids but he turns things round very quickly at home and I don't have the same problems they do.
My middle child has also decided this week to behave in the same manner by throwing a table over and has been excluded for the same amount of time as my youngest.
Anyway, school are now saying that there must be something going on at home for 2 children from the same household been so aggressive.
There's nothing going on at home we have a good routine, as in getting ready, meals, bath, bed are all more or less the same time so it's quite structured, they enjoy coming home and playing or watching TV, reading etc. No changes in homelife.

So I'm just stuck because now i feel that school are blaming my parenting for their behaviour at school and I'm at my wits end as I don't get the same behaviour and it's like they don't believe me... they want me to be transparent, I can't be anymore transparent unless they move into my house!!

I don't know what I'm asking, I don't know what I want, I don't know if it's just to rant but has anyone else every experienced this?

Thanks for reading

This sounds like your children have some serious issues going on in their lives. I would be asking school for a referral to the LA behaviour support services (whatever they may be called in your area)

What are the consequences when at home? Are they being punished or do they see it as a fun day at home being able to do what they want?

They have to do their work as a normal school day, I ask them why they've behaved like that at school and why they've hit teachers etc and why they don't behave like that at home and all I get is well why would I do that to you, you're my mum.

The only place they are majorly acting out like this is in school

That sounds difficult, OP. Could you have a chat to school and say that there genuinely are no home issues you are aware of, but your feeling is your kids may actually be (consciously or unconsciously) acting up at school because they know it will get them sent home, which is an environment they prefer? Schools that are quick to jump to exclusions tend to do so because it gets rid of an issue for them short term, but they need to be putting some work into understanding what the triggers are and supporting your kids in the school setting. Your youngest in particular sounds like he might benefit from a review of how he is coping in the noisy, demanding school environment. You might also want to think about a clear demarcation around how home is when your kids are on an exclusion period. It can’t feel fun at all - no TV, no tablets or phones, set work or chores, it needs to feel so little fun that being at school almost feels preferable. It’s not about punishing them but it is about underlining that they can’t manipulate the situation by acting out at school.

Firstly, I don't know what is happening but I'm going to sketch out a few possibilities.

It's possible that your youngest struggles with various things but you have adapted around him without realising that you are. Pre schools and schools see a lot of children and focus on moulding the children to fit the environment. They don't bend and adjust the way parents do, so he may have some additional needs that you are meeting but school are not,

If this is a possibility the usual first thing to do is to get a vision and hearing test as problems with these are both common and easily fixable.

If he is having problems seeing or hearing then he will be finding things difficult and he may not know that how he sees/hears isn't normal because it is for him.

there may have been something to trigger this. Has anything changed in the past few months? Anything unusual happened?

I've spoken to school on numerous occasions and explained he loves spending time with me so the more they send him home, the more he will do it. I don't allow any TV or fun times during the day they have to do school work I try keep the day to their school times lunch etc. It's really hard though as they aren't displaying the behaviour at home so to be harsh in a way makes me feel awful but I do stick to things I've said.
School have mentioned that about the noise etc but he's boisterous and lives with siblings uts not a quiet household and he's always had long days in a private nursery setting which is a loud environment. They have placed him on SEN register for extra support for emotional and behavioural at school... I feel like I'm going mad though as they don't behave like that anywhere else not to this extent anyway.

The only thing that's happened since September is him starting school and he really doesn't like it, most days he says he doesn't want to go but when he is there and has a good day he loves it

Ok.

So a couple of points:

When a child is excluded from school although it is part punishment it's also about keeping the rest of the class and the teachers safe.

If a child is violent and there's a risk of people getting hurt then removing him isn't (just) about consequences for him.

So you can say to the school that he may be doing it deliberately to get home to you but it won't stop them excluding him if they need to.

Secondly you say that he doesn't like school.
Do you know what he doesn't like about it? What conversations have you had with him and or with school?

Is your middle child seeing their sibling being rewarded with going home early and copying their sibling’s behaviour because they want to go home early too?

I would ask school for an assessment from an educational psychologist or similar to help dc3 settle at school. The longer is goes on, the more likely it is that he will fall behind and struggle to make friends with the other kids because they will become scared of him.

I suspect that you’ve tailored your parenting to dc3’s temperament without realizing it and deal with them differently to school. Schools are very rigid in their treatment of kids which is understandable when there’s more kids than adults but it means that kids like your dc3 get left behind. You probably know how to avoid dc3 getting angry and take action to stop this happening without realizing eg giving them space but school won’t know them well enough to do that.

It's so embarrassing to hear that my child is been physically aggressive towards the staff and I really do feel it for them, I've had the conversation with him about hurting people and how he'd feel if someone was hurting me and he says he wouldn't be happy and will tell me he's sorry but then when speaking to teachers he won't acknowledge his behavior and they just get him back into school and talk about having a better day. I'm one of those parents though when I say no that's no so I don't kinda get into conversations about right choices etc.

I've already told school about him happy when he's at home even doing the school work with me but they say they have to exclude him due to the risks and behaviour (again I understand but I don't think it's helpful)

He likes his friends he likes to play, sometimes he likes to read other times he doesn't, he doesn't like the writing but he's really good at it, I think he's just stubborn and often doesn't want to do things but then it's already escalated to the point of no return for them to calm a situation down

I'm sorry but it sounds like you're minimising his behaviours. Imagine the impact on the rest of his reception class, very young children who have to learn how to settle in school with a child who's violent? You say he's fine at home, but he's acting out for a reason, and you don't seem to have a sense of urgency to get to the bottom of things? If he has any SEN then the school should be supporting referrals for assessments. But you need to take a hard look in the mirror and think about the influences in his life

You're all probably right on the fact I've tailored some of my parenting to him, I have a job and care foe family members and don't have time for messing about that's why we have a routine and he's fully aware what's expected at home ( and that he won't get what he wants through kicking off)

My middle child behaved in exactly the same way as the youngest last week and was excluded fir the same reason, not listening and flipping a table 🫣 they both got the same treatment from school

Having a conversation about hurting people won't make any difference.

He needs to learn to recognise his own emotions and start to be able to make choices about how to deal with them.

You might find Zones of regulation helpful.

zonesofregulation.com

I'm fully aware of the impact on other children and don't want it to have an affect on any of them I wouldn't be here asking for advice, I'm not minimising anything if you read back on my comments you will see I'm not happy about the situation and have tried to seek support and am now at a loss

Do your kids see their dad? You reference a partner? Is this a desire for attention from you/parent now they are at school full time? 3 kids means you must be busy.

OP, I know someone with a child like this - the odd issue at home but nothing they couldn’t handle, but flipped (and I do mean flipped) when starting school. Turns out they have autism with PDA (pathological demand avoidance) and see learning as a demand so refuse to engage and lashes out. Might be worth reading up around PDA and autism and seeing if you spot any traits? (You may well not do - I’m not trying to armchair-diagnose here, I’m only posting in case it’s helpful.)

I would definitely not exclude the possibility of him having a diagnosable condition - has the SENCO suggested any assessment?

Assuming there has genuinely been no trauma/big/changes. I would see the senco for youngest and ask for an assessment.

You sound like you don’t think school should have excluded your middle DC for flipping a table?
Two children behaving like this in one family is a safeguarding concern. Stop looking for reasons why it isn’t happening or doesn’t happen at home and start engaging with what IS happening at school.
Do they see their dad? What is the relationship with your partner like?
Its never as simple as ‘just doesn’t like writing’ - doesn’t like demands, has no resilience, can’t communicate etc
In your posts you keep implying school can’t ‘handle’ him. He’s disruptive and violent - how would you handle it?

@KidsEatSleepWorkRepeat

It is unsettling and unsafe to witness for younger students.
It has happend several times in my youngst daughter's class and it affected the other children. They were scared and asked to stay home. I find it helpful that schools take action.

I think you should talk to teachers and school what options there are for help and how you can sort it. Maybe reach out to your GP.
And of course pay extra attention to him.
The older might be a copycat. You need to talk to him that it isn't a great way to go.

My child was exactly like this from year one, he’s a teenager now. He ended up being diagnosed as autistic age 6 and although he didn’t seem too different to other child at a young age as he’s got older the autism has become very apparent. The school used to think I was in denial as we didn’t have the same issues at home but looking back it was such a busy, noisy, chaotic school it must have been hell for ds. Ds had two parents in a stable home the issue you may have is that things get blamed on external factors which may or may not be the problem.

Firstly as regards the exclusions, are these formal exclusions or are the school just asking you to pick him up. You need to be getting the formal exclusion paperwork for every exclusion, if not refuse to pick him up. The school may try to act like they are being kind and don’t want it going on his record but it is better in the long run for you in getting support if it does go on his record and it looks worse for the school if they are excluding a child multiple times but not addressing anything to solve the issues. Keep all of these letters as evidence.

Also as regards the exclusions even if it is a formal exclusion legally they cannot insist you collect straight away. This was one of the best pieces of advice I ever got as it takes a lot of pressure off you. I did get warned by person that gave me the advice that it may make them make exclusions longer, so if they were planning to exclude for an afternoon and I refused to collect the exclusion may start the next day but be a two day exclusion. In practise I actually found we got less exclusions as I wasn’t solving the immediate problem by picking ds up and the school had to look at other ways.

are you having a reintegration meeting after each exclusion, natural insist is to feel guilty and say you’ll try and talk to ds and you feel responsible and someone need to solve it. However the fact is that if he’s having multiple exclusions they aren’t working, and school need to change something. Ask the school what they will be doing to prevent further exclusions such as what support will be out in place. If you don’t get minutes from an exclusion meeting (unlikely) create your own record by emailing the school to confirm your understanding of what wa s discussed at the meeting, this is all evidence. Has he seen an Ed psych? We got fobbed off for a year or so with this and then found out it wouldn’t happen through the school so I ended up paying private. In our day it cost the school around £500 for a child to see the Ed psych so they were reluctant to pay even if child was having multiple exclusions.

I understand it is tough for schools too but I’ve seen people whose child was routinely sent home through primary, this solved the immediate problem for the school but solved nothing in the long run. Now they are in secondary, have no diagnosis, have no ehcp and it takes a few years to get these things, if you only start in secondary it’s unlikely to be sorted by gcse year and before you know it they are out of school completely.

my ds was diagnosed end of year 2 waiting lists were shorted in those days. We didn’t apply for ehcp until after diagnosis as Senco told me it would be turned down but with hindsight we should have applied pre diagnosis as we got turned down after disagnosis anyway and had to go through tribunal. After tribunal ds got ehcp with full time 32.5 hours 1-1 but by now we were end of year 3 and the school never really consistently gave 1-1 support so in the end I had another fight with the la and got him moved to a specialist unit in year 4.

It’s unusual for two children in one family to both behave like this.
They both need to know that behaviour like this at school will have firm consequences at home as it sounds like you’re saying you feel bad being harsh at home as they’re good there?
So gets sent home no TV, Tablet or any treats.
Are they expected to do things at home they don’t like to do without you treating them, cajoling them? I’d work on that, getting them used to doing things they don’t want to do more often so they can work through those feelings of frustration at home. I know of parents who say they aren’t like this at home but that’s because they don’t have to do anything they don’t want to!

Finally, it must be hard for you but I’ve had a child like that in the past in my class and whilst I felt for him he was making mine, the teaching assistants and the other children’s lives miserable. Every time he threw furniture, hurt one of us we had to stop what we were doing and leave the classroom until he was calmed down. Other children were actually scared of him. It’s so important you keep engaging with school.

Oh and mine didn’t and doesn’t like writing either. In our case it stemmed from ds having anxiety about being wrong, the Ed psych also picked up thst he was very pre occupied with getting spellings right rather than just having a go like most kids too. The recommendation in the Ed psych report is thst key words would be written on a white board for ds by his ta to remove this anxiety he also was to have access to a dictionary at all times, so sometimes it’s just fairly minor things like this that can make a difference. He also used to sometimes write on a white board instead of paper when he was very young so he could erase if he wasn’t happy with it and no one saw which alleviated anxiety. The teacher had some way of taking a screenprint of the white board so he had that glued in his books

I’d ask for a referral tbh. If there is such a vast difference between home and school theres something going on.

This behaviour is extreme and if my DD flipped a table over at school or hit a teacher there would be serious sanctions. I’m not sure a chat is enough tbh.

Referral to where?