Kids excluded... pls help

[KidsEatSleepWorkRepeat]

Hi All,
First time posting on here as I really don't know where to turn... sorry of its all over the place I'm just trying ro get everything out!!
So a bit of background, mum of 3, age B5, G9 ,G13. I have a partner who lives in his own house who has his own kids similar ages to my younger ones.
Anyway... school....My youngest started school in September (all my children have attended the same private nursery since age 1 and still attend, they dont experience the behaviourlike school, odd moments but nothing major) he's been excluded on numerous occasions for lashing out at teachers and throwing things around the classroom... totally unacceptable (I agree) problem I have is he's the most loving, funny,caring child and loves learning about new things and listens at home and rarely is a bother but his behaviour at school is crazy... they send him home he loves spending time with me, I'm constantly having to leave work which is really affecting me I'm worries I'm going to end up jobless and homeless due to school not been able to handle the behaviour. Don't get me wrong he has his moments at home as do all kids but he turns things round very quickly at home and I don't have the same problems they do.
My middle child has also decided this week to behave in the same manner by throwing a table over and has been excluded for the same amount of time as my youngest.
Anyway, school are now saying that there must be something going on at home for 2 children from the same household been so aggressive.
There's nothing going on at home we have a good routine, as in getting ready, meals, bath, bed are all more or less the same time so it's quite structured, they enjoy coming home and playing or watching TV, reading etc. No changes in homelife.

So I'm just stuck because now i feel that school are blaming my parenting for their behaviour at school and I'm at my wits end as I don't get the same behaviour and it's like they don't believe me... they want me to be transparent, I can't be anymore transparent unless they move into my house!!

I don't know what I'm asking, I don't know what I want, I don't know if it's just to rant but has anyone else every experienced this?

Thanks for reading

I understand it’s extremely difficult for the parents in this situation and I completely echo this poster in saying that you need to secure the appropriate documentation and ensure that the correct protocols are being followed.
However, I would URGE you to collect your son as soon as possible - DO NOT refuse to collect. The longer you leave your son at school in a state of anger and dysregulation, the longer his negative experience at school that day will last. If he is unable to calm, he will likely have to be restrained to keep himself and others safe. This is a horrendous thing to prolong for him when you could avoid it by picking him up, even though it is having an impact on your professional life. The more time your son can continue in this state of anger, unable to regulate his emotions and unable to control his feelings, the more ‘normal’ this school experience will become for him. Each negative experience needs to try and come to a halt as soon as possible otherwise there is even more to unpick and ‘rewire’ if you will. This is why a part timetable can be hugely successful in these situations - shorter time in school means less time to become stressed or angry, which means more chance of it being a positive experience. He needs to have positive experiences to build the positive association with school. DO NOT leave him at school to continue to throw, injure others and be in a very heightened state of emotion. That is SO damaging for him (and of course the effect on staff).

I would suggest OP you explore the possibility of a part timetable - at least then you would have consistency with his hours. He should have a member of staff with him who can have him in an alternative location within school for these short periods of time, gradually increasing his hours and his time spent in class when positive experiences happen. Push for help from an external body, the school will have contacts from alternative provisions who can provide outreach and come to school and see him to offer support. Keep all paperwork as a PP said.

I really feel for you, it is difficult for everybody involved.

they send him home he loves spending time with me, I'm constantly having to leave work which is really affecting me I'm worries I'm going to end up jobless and homeless due to school not been able to handle the behaviour.

So they are rewarded for misbehaviour by getting to go home with mum.

Is there anyone you could ask to do the collecting of them and keeping them?

If not I'd make the time at home, when excluded, boring as hell. No TV, no toys. Whatever they don't like doing, I know they are small but they are old enough to help with housework.

One possible option is to ask the school for a visit to school from the educational psychologist.

I suspect the middle child is mirroring the behaviour of the youngest to get out of school or get attention. What words (exactly) do you say to them about the behaviour in school? Do you give a consequence at home? Have you considered paying privately for an Ed Psych review to see if there are learning difficulties or something else triggering all of this? The youngest one clearly can't cope with what school are asking of him. Have you spent the day observing him in school? It might help you see what he is being expected to do and how he is responding to it.

@KidsEatSleepWorkRepeat

i just wanted to bring this post to your attention in case you'd missed it.

Brilliant advice from @Morph22010 (sorry it was gained the hard way!!)

I've been through something similar to @Morph22010 although we were lucky - I caught it earlier, the school were helpful and I had money to throw at the problem (realistically wait lists are years for any kind of diagnosis and assessment and you have to wise up yourself quickly and push and push and spent huge amounts of your own time and money). Plus child was "fine" in school and all problems were at home - easier in some ways.

It is important that school understands that you know the law around exclusions so you need to be up on it yourself. Don't risk your job by collaborating with illegal exclusions and part time timetables. You need everything in writing to create a dossier of evidence to get help.

Firstly, you are clearly meeting his needs at home. Behaviour is communication and he's telling you very clearly that something in the school environment is making him upset and anxious.

I'd guess your middle child also has some challenges but is better at masking. Think back to their reception year - were there really no issues at all?

A good book is The Explosive Child.

I get your point and I would always pick up when I could but the just knowing that legally you don’t have to takes away a lot of pressure which can then make it easier to feel calmer yourself and focus on moving forward and finding solutions. Part time timetables can work but they have to be part of another plan or temporary while things are sorted otherwise it’s just another way of you solving the schools immediate problem and nothing else will happen.

my sons school were reluctant to use external help or outreach as it’s all chargeable to the school and they didn’t want to use funds in this way. If I hadn’t pushed back and refused the exclusions he’d have drifted through with school managing by sending home or having a part time timetable of an hour or so a day.

Yes they see their dad

definately worth asking but it costs a school to have the Ed psych in and not all will be prepared to pay

Tell them they can't hit anyone, just not hitting their mum is not good enough! Tell them the teacher is looking after them for you and they must be just as good for her as they are for you. It sounds like they understand what they are doing is wrong and are trying to justify it, don't let them.

Oh my so many responses thank you! I feel the school initially targeted him once he started they have recently become very SEN orientated, a new teacher came in last year so they now have a special room for SEN children, when he initially started they put ear defenders on him without discussing it with me and I feel he's been targeted since day one. The problem I have is I don't understand how he behaves in all other settings to how he behaves at school and instead of supporting to keep him in school they are just excluding him, yes there is always paperwork. I spoke to the education department last week and they advised me not to consent to a part time timetable as its better he is excluded with reasons so that meeting can take place with education. I was advised that schools don't really like to exclude as they don't want it on their record! And that it's not very common of that children this age get excluded. I don't feel that they are dealing with what's happening whilst in the school. Yes he's becoming so angry and lashing out which must be so distressing foe him to have to get to that point. I feel he's missing out on learning, and I don't want him to not be able to make friends. The fact he's actually lashing out at teachers makes me really sad as they are there to help and support him but i feel the way they must be handling the situation is upsetting foe him to react the way he is. Its difficult as I'm not there to see this behaviour so when I arrive he's generally calmer but upset I'm there to collect him as he wants to stay in school. It's really confusing. I'll definately be speaking to them to see what referrals they can make to try and support him in school. It just baffles me in the change of behaviour he's the one at home that gets ready for at and is happy to go to nursery for his breakfast and walk to school with them, no problems there but fromm him been in school approx an hour or so everything changes. Then he gets sent home, I don't allow any TV or anything he likes as he needs to know that it's still school time and he has to do whatever work they send home which he generally does then he will talk about what's made him unhappy and we start the next school day again. School are saying that I'm not been transparent with them although I'm telling them exactly what's happening at home they still think that there's something untoward and that it must be something I'm doing as a parent or abusing my kids or something.

It's also really difficult with work as I cant just come out of work at the drop of a hat due to the nature of my job. Although they have been understanding there's not enough hours in a day to make up all the hours and it's really difficult I feel im under so much pressure and although school keep saying that they understand I work etc I still don't feel like they are helping ... its all just so tiring

CAMHS

What do you mean by "targeted" and what's the issue with the ear defenders, assuming DS doesn't mind wearing them?

Realistically, those are the kind of things schools can do in the short term when they don't know what they're dealing with.

Obviously they have to keep the staff and other kids safe too.

It's something that they're giving you the exclusion paperwork at least. Keep everything like that.

I don't think CaAMHS is likely to be a solution here. It's generally very hard to access them and this child can't articulate what's upsetting him so talking therapy's not likely to help (besides he'd be about 8 before he got any!)

Play therapy might help.

Do you work full time? Would the school let you help in his class? I am thinking that would allow you to see what he is like in school so that you can suggest things to help him in school and also it would remove the reward of misbehaving in order to be with you. So if he still flips out then you know it isn't becacuse he wants to be with you, it is because he isn't coping in school because they aren't supporting him enough.

Completely agree @Morph22010 that part timetable needs to be one aspect of a bigger plan and OP if you do go down the part timetable route make sure you know the plan for when his hours will be increased if things are going positively.

Is he having a phased return after the exclusions OP? It is an awful lot for a child that young to go back for a full school day straight after a two day exclusion for example.

@Morph22010 and another poster (sorry I can’t recall user) are very right in saying you really need to advocate for your child to get the best outcome, great advice from many on this thread.

But without CAMHs assesment they will not stand a chance for EHCP. It is CAMHs that asseses mental health of kids and determines what is the ultimate reason.
They can also contact local Early Intervention team but CAMHs is a must for diagnosis even if it takes a year before they will see them.
The therapy will not hurt in the meantime

He sounds exactly like my son was at that age it’s so hard but you will get through it eventually you sound like a really caring parent and it’s so hard when people say just have firmer boundaries, be consistent, etc etc and you are doing all these things and they just aren’t working to change things at school, it makes you feel like the worst parent in the world. 99% of other parents manage to have their children not throwing tables so you are made to feel you must be doing something wrong.

For us I eventually realised I was probably doing more in the way of parenting than virtually all parents but it still wasn’t working when I wasn’t there. I found I could have all the conversations in the world with ds about managing emotions, hitting being wrong etc etc and he’d understand all at the time when he was calm but it needs someone there to manage situations when they arise and have strategies to deescalate (or not get to that point in first place) you just can’t do from a distance when you are not in the school.

do you think the school really are good at sen? Ds’s school like to say they were good at sen and did all the outward things that people could see to make them look like they were, so had a sensory garden etc but then for examples they’d do things like when ds had a 1-1 he had an end of day routine which kept him calm and sometimes they’d take the 1-1 away to use elsewhere and just expect ds to fit in like other kids. If he had a meltdown and threw things he’d be excluded and they had zero understanding of how the change in a routine would effect and autistic child and made no allowances for it

Depends on the area in my area kids are only assessed by cahms when older, younger kids are through paediatrics but it’s now a 4 year wait

Not true. There are two routes for diagnosis for ADHD/PDA/ ASD other neurodiversities, camhs or the paediatric team. At this age the paediatric team at the local hospital will be a better bet. For this route you need a letter from the school stating their concerns which you take to the gp and they then refer you on and put you on a waiting list.

I don't know if they will let OP go in and observe.

But I will say that it was watching my (then aged 7) DC failing to engage at all with online learning during the lockdowns that gave me the confidence to push for an ADHD and ASD assessment. It can be very useful to see what's going on for your child in the classroom.

A bit of role playing at home could help elicit what's up. Too noisy? Too much choice or too little? Too much sitting still? Can't hold pencil? Lights/colours/smells? Directive language rather than declarative? Can't understand what's being said? Etc.

Routes to referral/diagnosis/assessment vary a lot by area. Always unwise to assume that the process in your area is the same as in others. Even London boroughs do things wildly differently to each other. Even neighbouring ones!

Thst is completely wrong ehcp is based on need not diagnosis. I accept that the la will very likely turn down assessment based on their not being a diagnosis but op then gets the legal right of appeal and the bar for ehcp assessment is that the child MAY (not does) have sen thst needs support over and above what a school would usually provide (sorry I can’t remember exact wording but this is the gist). Op is already able to evidence this with the exclusions alone and her child being on sen register so would easily win tribunal and get assessment.

we got told by senco years ago that we wouldn’t get without diagnosis. So we waited for diagnosis and got turned down anyway as la said it was a new diagnosis and they now wanted to see if things improved now he had diagnosis. There is always some reason the la can find to refuse so the sooner you get the ehcp process going and you see within the legal system the better.

we were only just over a year to diagnosis and then it took around a further two years to get ehcp in place. Wait times for diagnosis where we live are now around 4 years and ehcp tribunal wait times are now a year (was 12 weeks when I went to tribunal) , ops son will have left primary school by the time it’s sorted if she waits

One thing stood out from what you posted @KidsEatSleepWorkRepeat
Routine
You have one at home, he knows what is expected of him and when. That applies to the nursery too, he watched his older siblings then he went there. He knows what to expect.
School is new, unexpected, scary, constantly changing.
Sounds very much like he could be ND and you have been meeting his needs so well without realising, that it's only now he's in a setting where those needs aren't being met that it is affecting him. Behaviour is his way of communicating he isn't coping.