Is this normal for residential school trips?

[sheflieswithherownwings]

My DC doesn't have a place on the year 5 school residential (not because they didn't want to go but mainly due to poor communication from the school and the fact that they are relatively new to the school but has been there since last September). Apparently there is a waiting list and it was basically first come first served.. but obviously a large majority of the year group will be going.

AIBU to think that if the school offers a residential trip you find somewhere suitable so that ALL children who want to go, can go. This is for a Year 5 4-night trip in May, during term time.

So now they will be stuck (and expected to be in school, in school uniform, while all their friends are off having a great time and they'll probably be doing worksheets in a year 6 class). How can the school think this is okay and fair? It's different if the child doesn't want to go - they should definitely have that option.

But to essentially exclude a group of kids from an amazing experience, that their friends will be talking about for weeks afterwards, because the parents can't afford it or because they were a bit too late in signing up, seems very wrong to me. Apparently, the system is the same in year 6 - ie, limited numbers and not all children who want to go will be able to (for context, we have been living overseas for a few years and this type of situation would never have occurred at DCs school there as it would have been considered inequitable - all children would have been given / offered a place, and their place paid for if needed).

Anyone able to let me know whether this is a normal approach to residential trips in English schools?

@TizerorFizz yes I think aiming to make sure all children who want to go, can go, makes the most sense to me.. but I do appreciate that larger schools are going to find that more tricky. I will get some clarity about whether they will prioritise those children currently on the year 5 waiting list for the year 6 trip (as one email I received led me to believe this wasn't the case, which is very poor if that is true so I need to know for certain).

@sheflieswithherownwings Although larger schools do have more resources! Definitely more staff for obvious reasons. Usually schools ask if parents are interested and then decide two groups or one big one based on responses. The staff/pupil ratio can include TAs and parents. It doesn’t have to be all teachers.

I would try and press the school to run a priority list for y6 or try and see if all who want to go, can go. Is y6 after sats? That’s often the case. I’m not sure many schools run residentials for y5 and y6 these days. Usually it’s a big event for y6 leavers.

Every school I've worked in has offered residentials every year from Y3 to Y6. And every child can go if they want.

Ours was a huge primary and everyone who wanted to go went. Yr3-6

My DD and other dc where I’ve been a governor were clearly disadvantaged then! Both went in y2 but that was very unusual. Parents struggle to pay in many schools so 4 years of residentials is a lot. I know very few who offer so much here but one in y6 is just fine with most parents. The majority really look forward to it.

Yes this is normal, it's completely unfair I agree, but it is not uncommon.

It's very common aswell in secondary school, there will be trips with only a certain number of places, so I guess it does prepare them for that also?

Eg the school ski trip is always a limited number of places, it's normally first come first served.

My daughter went to France last year (year 8), and it was oversubscribed so names were drawn at random. Luckily she got to go but there were many that didn't.

Our school is 60% pupil premium so certainly not an area with affluent parents.

One of the advantages of small schools.

What if staff are willing to do one trip a year, but not two or three? You can't force school staff to do residential trips, it is run entirely on goodwill.

Is it genuinely better if no-one gets to go?

Schools need to be careful with this, though. Some teachers with health conditions or disabilities may not be able to go on residential trips (as an example). If it becomes "harder" for them to work in a school due to this, then this is indirect discrimination.

Also, what about single parents etc? Whilst it's not a characteristic protected in law, it obviously causes issues with residential trips.

In a lot of areas these days, schools are desperate to hang on to good teachers, so understand the need to be accommodating and flexible. If someone is a brilliant teacher in all other ways, but can't go on overnight trips, guilting them about doing so is a great way to lose staff.

They do absolutely. Yet there is no acknowledgement from Ofsted that the strain on teachers in small schools is much, much greater. See also running clubs. Very easy to offer when you have 15+ teachers, less so when you have 2.

Tbh I think having limited spaces stops kids who's parents can't afford it from sticking out like a sore thumb. Schools have limited budgets and can't be expected to pay for places. If you didn't get your form in on time, then that is a parent issue.

Oh that's alright then! It's not only the kids from poor families who miss out - the ones from chaotic homes with disorganised parents can share the burden of not going.

OP, you're right; it should be everyone who wants to come or no one.

OP, I think it's normal and understandable you are disappointed your child can't go this time.

However, as others have pointed out, it's pretty amazing that the school are offering these opportunities at all. The teachers are giving up their time to do something that, while rewarding, is also extremely stressful and tiring. They are taking time away from their own families to do this. It is unpaid and not part of their job, and the administrative burden on those who organise it is immense.

If I were you I would just be massively grateful that your child's school and teachers are willing to offer these opportunities at all. And next time get your slip in early! (And I appreciate it wasn't your fault you were late this time, but I fortunately that's life isn't it? It's not the biggest misfortune ever, just slightly bad luck. There is always next year).

Please, please don't have a big go at the school about this. I have been in the position of fighting to organise trips and visits and to get extra funding to support those who can't afford it, taking on massive loads of extra paperwork (and training too in some cases in my own time), etc etc, and then you get parents complaining quite angrily because for whatever reason places had to be limited. (And depending on the activity sometimes they just are - i do a lot of theatre trips for example and sometimes there are only so many tickets left....).

It makes you feel like not bothering, when you go to all this length and then get a slagging off for it! And sorry if I sound bitter, and i'm sure you wouldn't be rude to the school yourself, OP. But you see what I mean .....

That is when they are a mandatory part of the curriculum but not trips that just enhance or enrich, wich is most of the residential trips

In my school it is part of the mandatory curriculum as they cover the outdoor and adventurous activities part of the National Curriculum.

The law on offsite trips and visits is clear. When you plan a visit or activity for a group, such as for a school year-group or
youth group, you must take reasonably practicable measures to include every
member of the group. You must make reasonable efforts to find a venue and
activities that are suitable and accessible, and to make arrangements that enable
the whole group to participate fully and to gain the benefits. Equally if the trip is Mostly during the school day (ie on a residential most of the days are during the school week) only voluntary contributions are allowed to be sought. If not sufficient contributions are made then the school either tops it up or cancels the trip for everyone.

Our school is technically 7 form entry but split over two sites, so more like two separate schools. Our year 5s are going on a residential next term with four forms going one week and three the next. There aren't travel costs for ours luckily as they can get there on London bus and then a mile or so walk, and a minibus takes the luggage. It's still not cheap though! My understanding is that places are limited, but they will do everything they can to fit everyone in. We keep getting messages saying "there are just a few places left, please pay the deposit". So I don't think anyone who wants to go will be left out.

@Ilovelurchers i do understand what you’re saying and I appreciate how hard it must be to organise. I would like to understand though how many year 5s won’t be going and how they are planning to occupy them that week. I’ll be very polite about it though! And I do think they have a duty to make sure those not going this year definitely get to go in year 6 otherwise that would be very unfair.

@APurpleSquirrel Well the small village schools here are KS1 mostly and I worked in education long enough to know village schools don’t do loads of residentials either even when they have ks2 dc. Not even leafy lane ones. Parents just don’t have the money.

Really? So do you think this school should have known this child would start after the trip was booked?!

And would you pay the fine for these other kids too?!

Not who you were replying to but with respect this is just your experience in your specific area. I work in a rural area surrounded by many small village schools (through primaries with under 100 pupils) and have done for a long time. Most KS2 classes here go on residential. I don't doubt what you're saying is true where you are, but it is not the case everywhere. In fact, most small village schools here have Y6s far too small to take on residential alone (because taking less than a class worth on a coach is very expensive) so year groups have to share residentials anyway. They are not expensive residentials - costs are very much kept down, especially because parents might have two or even three children from their household going.

Absolutely @Helenahatstand - that's the case for our school; our KS2 class is combined Y3-6, & the whole class goes on residential every year. So they get 4 full-week residentials during primary & costs are much lower than other local larger schools. Plus there is help for those on low incomes & reduced costs for those with more than one child going.

@APurpleSquirrel that sounds like a great approach, and what a great experience for those kids and something to look forward to each year.

Apparently there are some activities in school for those kids not going, but essentially some additional sport and art, so nowhere near as exciting as theme parks and the beach. A bit disappointing really.

FWIW I agree the current OFSTED framework is not fit for purpose for very small schools. Not long after Ruth Perry died, an EX-HMI admitted on social media that very small schools basically cannot get Outstanding under the current framework.

I also think parents who choose small schools need to acknowledge this too.

Some Kids who can't afford it can get help if they want to go