State until eight - experiences please

[DappledOliveGroves]

Prompted by the independent school thread currently kicking off on AIBU, I am interested to know more about the "State until eight" ethos.

DD2 is 20 months, so we have a bit of time to think about things.

My husband and I were both privately educated - me from aged 4, him from aged 7. My DD1 (now in her early 20s) went to independent school for secondary only, then a state sixth form. The sixth form was disastrous, though this was not necessarily the school's fault, more that DD1 chose the age of 16 to fully get into teenage rebellion, though the A-level choices she went for weren't especially inspiring at the Sixth Form.

I credit a lot of my academic success to having had an excellent grounding from aged 4 onwards. Things like knowing times tables by rote, by aged 4. Spelling lists, regular tests, being stretched academically at every level from the word go. However, I don't have much to compare this to as I don't know how I would have fared had I gone to a state school.

DD1 went to state school in London from Reception and I feel that she never had the grounding that I did. There were no regular spelling tests, no learning by rote, no languages taught by native speakers, no science labs etc. Having said that, she is very different to me and has never been especially academic.

What I want to know is whether adopting a "state til eight" approach is sensible, or whether this risks missing the fundamentally important basics being taught at the best possible level, meaning that DD2 may not get the right grounding if she went to a state school for the first few years.

Finances, wise, we could go private from the outset, but would prefer to have a few more years to save under our belts.

Does anyone have any info they can please share about whether starting independent school at 8 has worked well for your children, or if you feel they may have missed out at all?

Many thanks.

Given the huge benefits of learning through play, I'd say she'd be 'missing out' by going anywhere that promotes rote learning and spelling tests from age 4!

Let 4 year olds be 4! (From an academically successful, state school only, council estate kid)

Also, there are no benefits whatsoever to a child knowing their timetables by rote at age 4.

The EYFS and KS1 curriculums focus heavily on mastery. The understanding of how maths 'works', being able to spot patterns and relationships etc, is considered far more important than rote learning facts.

Anywhere which is teaching Reception children facts by rote is getting it woefully wrong and will only set them up for problems later on when they don't actually understand the maths behind the calculations they're trying to solve.

Rote learning can only get you so far, same with memorising spellings etc. Young brains can only store so much in their memories. Much better to teach them strategies so they can have a go at working things out for themselves.

I think if you give her a good start from 2 to 4, you can afford to skip private school for 5- 7 maybe, but it depends on the primary.

I know people who have done private nursery (uniform and very much early Prep) for preschool, having specialist language, music, lots of clubs, then going state from reception to Y2, then gone back into private Prep for 7+ with no problems.

There's also (in my view) a bit of a lean to smart State Primary kids for private schools for 7+ entry, they have a bigger challenge than a child at a 20+K a year pre-prep school that feeds their pupils into the best local private schools. (The equivalent of top Uni's having a lean to smart student at state over stellar private schools).

IF the state primary for DD2 are located in leafy, well to do suburbs , so full of middle classed kids, very active PTA, lots of clubs , can raise funds for extra bells and whistles for the school etc etc , specialist music and language and lots of sport and forest school, so its like a bare bones Prep, I'd say go for it.

Yes, its not as all singing and dancing as Prep, but a well to do Primary, and filling gaps will mean the day to day gap isn't massive.

If the state primary has none of that, THEN its a huge effort to fill the gaps a good prep offers. Even with a good middle classed state primary, you'll have to fill in gaps of course, hardly anywhere does things like weekly swimming at State. Without lots of clubs and active PTA with lots of resources,specialist teachers - its a hell of a lot of work to fill those gaps.

The BIG DIFFERENCE is , if you're going for 7+, you'll need to tutor DC, ideally get an external tutor too, from start of Y1, some do from Reception, as the state primary curriculum will be WORLD away .

@BoleynMemories13 thanks for your messages. I think a lot will depend on the type of child she becomes. I loved academic learning as a young child. I could read before I started school and loved absorbing facts. DD1 was the total opposite, and we shall see how DD2 is (she's only 20 months so time will tell!)

@Doubtmyself that's very helpful, thank you. We're in Bristol so I don't know quite how pushy things are for 7+ entry compared to London. Our local primary schools are all Good or Outstanding, but I've not visited any yet and don't really have much of a feel for how they are. The resource and activity point is a good one - both DH and I work full time, so in a way a prep school would be great in providing extra curricular after school activities and wrap around childcare.

We’ve just done state till eight.

The first few years at primary were fine but we wanted more of a challenge for DC1 for the next few years and the thorough grounding you mentioned too. The state primary is in a deprived area, with big classes. After school clubs were pretty much non-existent because they were so oversubscribed.

The Y3 and above option is a smaller school, with smaller class sizes and the means to work dynamically/tailor teaching. It also has a wide range of other activities.

We don’t feel altogether great about leaving the state system but this independent option was the best approach for our particular child, at this particular stage.

I work in a prep school. My children are at state. They definitely don't do learning time tables by rote age 4 at my school. I see very little difference in what the children in my school learn, and what my own child does in the state school down the road.
There is evidence that an involved parent, helping the child learn, and providing educational experiences out side of school is what makes the most difference to a child's learning, not whether they go state or private.

Regardless of what type of child she ends up being, my point is that rote learning is a very outdated approach. You seem to think private school will teach her this way and insinuate that you think this is the right way to teach children by fearing she'll miss out on this approach if she doesn't go to private school from age 4.

My point is that even if you did send her to private school from age 4 I wouldn't expect her to be taught in that way these days. It would go against all recommended practice.

@BoleynMemories13 I'm pretty sure if OP has DD in her early 20s - rote learning was pretty normal when OP was a 4 year old at private school, she's remembering how things were like when she was at Prep.

I'm in my 40's and it was pretty much like that in state primary too.

OP's point about excellent grounding at private schools is true, simply because they provide a richer academic experience, at 20K+ a year, they can afford to.

Well yes, your top paragraph is exactly my point. I'm pointing out to her that education has changed a lot since then and she wouldn't get that now, private or not. I'm specifically talking about the rote learning here.

We'll have to agree to disagree on your last point.

I've not sent a child to prep school yet, only DD1 to a private secondary, so yes, my experience of prep schools is based on mine and my husband's, in the 1980s/1990s.

I imagine a lot has changed in the intervening years, but I would still suggest that rote learning of some things (times tables specifically) is crucial. Yes, children need to understand numeracy, how to work with numbers, but immediate recall of multiplication tables up to 12 is a life skill. Whether any prep schools do still teach that is another matter, and something I shall have to research.

I went to an independent at 8 as bored and underchallenged. My kids staying at state, although they are less academic.
Where we are at least half of kids at independent have been sent due to behaviour issues rather than academics, so poor discipline is an issue I don't want to pay for

In my children’s state school they learn times tables to ensure immediate recall. They don’t learn them by ‘rote’ though. Both my kids know them off by heart.

We did private from the start - nursery/pre-school onwards. Even then people were saying “state til 8” but I honestly wouldn’t change our decision. It was a lovely nurturing environment tailored to each child, with loads of outdoor time and learning.

Reading/writing/spelling was split into ability groups from reception, and each group of 5 or 6 children had a member of staff. This meant that the fundamentals were solid and suited each child’s level. There was no classroom disruption either.

Class sizes were around 18, which was big enough to provide plenty of different personalities and friendship possibilities, but small enough that even quiet children wouldn’t get overlooked.

In the overall scheme of things, the earlier years tend to be the cheapest. If you are looking at doing private until 18, those first 3 years don’t add a lot in percentage terms to the overall education cost.

The only thing I would say is to ensure you have the ability to pay the VAT and increased fees going forward.

The other thing I liked is that I think it increased their confidence. For example, music lessons were generally offered from year 1, and from the start children were encouraged to perform in concerts (group and solo). It means that my children are now not fazed by standing in front of a large group and performing/speaking. I can’t speak for all state schools, but our local one certainly didn’t provide as many opportunities for that type of thing.

Thanks so much for the contributions. VAT is absolutely a factor. Having said that, given what we're paying monthly for 5 days a week of childcare, school fees at Reception/Year 1/Year 2, even with VAT, will be less! Senior school fees, though, are a serious consideration.

Of course it's a life skill... but you're talking as if times tables are not taught at state school! Rote learning of tables really comes in around Year 3, in preparation for the Year 4 times tables check. They will have already learned their 2s, 5s and 10s by then but in a much more practical way, to help them understand what multiplcation actually is before they're ready to apply that knowledge to any times table. I can't imagine they start any earlier at private but, even if they do, I can't see any benefit. What's the point in a 4 year old being able to parrot 3x3 is 9 without any concept of what that actually means?

All I'm saying is I really wouldn't get hung up on this idea of rote learning being a better approach based on your personal experience from way back. There's so much more research now which shows that's not the case and that rote learning can actually lead to massive gaps in knowledge through a lack of understanding.

We were going to do this, but liked the village primary school so much, the children stayed until the end of Year 5, so they were rising 11 when they left. Any academic differential between them and prep-school children seemed short lived. Both have done well educationally and are in professional jobs now.

Things we liked about the state primary: the head, many of the teachers, the good literacy, the mildly CoE influence (I'm actually atheist now but liked the basic stress on kindness and emphasizing the non-materialistic, etc). It was a nurturing environment and everyone knew everyone.

Things that weren't so good: music, sport, quite a few disruptive children who could derail lessons.

@Doubtmyself has summed it up pretty well in my opinion. We had the option of moving under a mile for catchment into one of the leafy state primaries, good academic outcomes, engaged parents, active PTA etc or paying for private. We chose the latter because I felt there would still be gaps to fill; from speaking to parents at the state equivalent in question, children were heavily tutored and I preferred to pay and have the academics covered in the school day.

I also agree with @Another76543 about the teaching of the basic fundamentals in the early years in our prep. We have had others join in Y1/Y2 and it is far from easy trying to catch up.

Prep schools place a huge emphasis on speedy recall, particularly in maths. It is not rote learning as they then need to be able to manipulate and apply the knowledge in different areas which they would fail at if they had just memorised the facts. But compared to friends in the state sector, there is a massive difference in the approach to mental arithmetic.

It very much does depend on affordability but I feel the fees for those 3 years are insignificant in the grand scheme of things and would much rather they had the continuity from reception to year 6 if going down the private route.

We will be moving into catchment of a good state comp for secondary as fees are already extortionate and VAT would tip us over the edge.

#@BoleynMemories13

But neither my daughter nor my husband's state-educated-at-primary children (all of whom are now in early 20s) can tell you times tables answers if you ask them. They'd have to look it up on their phone, or start working out on fingers. If you said "what are seven eights" they wouldn't immediately answer "56". They all went to different primary schools. All were academically average or above. Yet none know their tables.

Whether things have changed since the 2000s re: how maths is taught to now, I don't know. But compared to previous generations, younger people don't seem to have the immediate recall that my father or grandmother had.

The problem with the state++ approach is coming into the selective system from outside. It's one of the hardest ways as you're preparing in isolation (no school support or peer parent community).
Attainment is an early years thing and generally at home but this can be motivated by being in a selective stream from 4.

Even things like coming from a maintained school where 1 child is a graded musician to the shock of an entire class in Y4 being graded with some being diploma level.

If private is the plan it's best to start the way you want to finish.

On VAT, the increase isn't much bigger than the general increases we've seen but most schools have ways to avoid VAT like paying in advance before the change that will most likely happen. VAT shouldn't really factor in tbh as it's a good thing for society.

My daughter’s state primary has rote learning of times tables (admittedly not at age 4!) and weekly spelling lists/tests. I’d say that’s pretty standard these days. People have some quite odd ideas about what state schools are actually like.

8 year olds with diploma level music exams?! That would be extremely unusual (in fact I’m not sure anyone that young has ever achieved that level), private school or otherwise. It would also be unusual for an entire class of children to have a graded exam.

Whilst I agree that private prep/primary school has benefits, I think it’s stretching the point to suggest that the difference is that stark!

We have gone full circle with times tables, with instant recall being valued and aspired for again. It wasn't such a big focus in the 90s and 00s, which is probably why your child and step-children don't have instant recall. Nothing to do with whether they went to state school or private.

I find it a sad assumption though that it must be because they didn't go to private school.

I'm of a the generation where automatic recall of times tables wasn't seen as important (born late 80s so primary in the 90s, secondary in the 00s). I simply don't have the instant recall that you are holding as a sign of intelligence but it has honestly never been a problem (and I'm a teacher!). If you asked me what is 7×8 my brain doesn't automatically get to 56. My brain just simply doesn't retain that as a fact as it wasn't the way I was taught. Within seconds though, I've told myself 5 times 8 is 40 and 2 times 8 is 16 therefore it must be 56. (Or 8×8 being 64 is a fact that did stick for me, so I'd subtract 8 to get the 56).

Does that make one of us more academically successful than the other, because your recall is instant and mine took a few seconds to calculate? We only focus on rote again now to get children to pass the stupid times tables check in Year 4, as it is timed so therefore they need the instant recall as they haven't got seconds to waste. I'd actually argue that teaching children to work it out how I was taught shows a greater level of thinking, as it proves they actually understand the process rather than simply have a good memory for facts.

Basically I wouldn't put so much weight on being able to instantly recall times tables. It's a skill, but it's not the be all and end all as long as children have been taught strategies to calculate them for themselves. I'd say the reaching for the phones is more a sign of the times. Young people generally are quite lazy with such things so I'm not surprised to hear young people are automatically reaching for their phones rather than solving a calculation in their head.

FWIW, my state educated 18yo can parrot her times tables beautifully. Thankfully, she also has the wisdom and emotional intelligence to realise that such things are of extremely limited importance in the grand scheme of things!

Ah, but if people don't talk about the state system as if it's a den of iniquity, how on earth will they justify the huge prices they're paying?