State until eight - experiences please

[DappledOliveGroves]

Prompted by the independent school thread currently kicking off on AIBU, I am interested to know more about the "State until eight" ethos.

DD2 is 20 months, so we have a bit of time to think about things.

My husband and I were both privately educated - me from aged 4, him from aged 7. My DD1 (now in her early 20s) went to independent school for secondary only, then a state sixth form. The sixth form was disastrous, though this was not necessarily the school's fault, more that DD1 chose the age of 16 to fully get into teenage rebellion, though the A-level choices she went for weren't especially inspiring at the Sixth Form.

I credit a lot of my academic success to having had an excellent grounding from aged 4 onwards. Things like knowing times tables by rote, by aged 4. Spelling lists, regular tests, being stretched academically at every level from the word go. However, I don't have much to compare this to as I don't know how I would have fared had I gone to a state school.

DD1 went to state school in London from Reception and I feel that she never had the grounding that I did. There were no regular spelling tests, no learning by rote, no languages taught by native speakers, no science labs etc. Having said that, she is very different to me and has never been especially academic.

What I want to know is whether adopting a "state til eight" approach is sensible, or whether this risks missing the fundamentally important basics being taught at the best possible level, meaning that DD2 may not get the right grounding if she went to a state school for the first few years.

Finances, wise, we could go private from the outset, but would prefer to have a few more years to save under our belts.

Does anyone have any info they can please share about whether starting independent school at 8 has worked well for your children, or if you feel they may have missed out at all?

Many thanks.

I refute this completely. Private schools - in my experience (and I have 29 years experience in education)- are not more structured at all, in fact I'd say they were less structured. It should not depend on the primary school at all. Here there is a curriculum that schools follow, each council has resources which all schools use (eg reading/ maths schemes/ literacy/ PSHE resources/ music/ PE programmes etc) and there's robust monitoring & evaluation within & between schools. I imagine it's very similar in England/ Wales/ N Ireland.

Clearly if you learned your times tables before you even started school you didn’t learn them as a result of going to prep school. I also learned my times tables by rote at 4, and was at a bog standard state primary. It was all to do with me and my (obsessive and probably not particularly healthy) interests, not to do with school. DD1 is in year 1 at a state primary and her best friend from round the corner is at a prep school. Her friend definitely has more “homework” and projects for her parents to do, but as far as their actual abilities and knowledge goes in terms of stuff like reading and maths there doesn’t appear to be any difference yet.

But go prep from 4 if you want to and can afford it, who cares.

I was confused. I am 40 with grandparents born in the 1930s.

In fact, state till 18 will probably be fine, given that 93% of pupils go to state schoos.

I’ve not rtft and just dipping in as someone who believes that all private schools must be abolished - but intrigued by this comment - why do children need to know their times-tables by rote ? My dd is extremely high performing (predicted all 8s and 9s and taking 12 GCSEs ) and never knew them by rote?

My criteria for education has always been that she comes out well educated but also well rounded and able to give back to society.

Ah, I’ve found sanity

I have been to many schools and I have seen more poor practice and kids running wild in independent schools than state schools. If you go for an outstanding state school this is likely to trump local private schools

From your post, and as a state school teacher, I would strongly suggest going private from the off. You won’t relax and I think you’ll become frustrated at the reality of the system. I’m not sure state would make you happy.

I haven’t missed a generation: my mother had me aged 42, I had DD1 at 19 and DD2 at almost 40.

I don’t know enough about whether private is or isn’t superior when it comes to teaching. Again, much will depend on the school. But at my prep school and secondary school we were taught foreign languages by native speakers of the same. Our physics teachers had doctorates (much good it did me, as I had zero interest in physics and much preferred humanities).

I suppose one goes with what one is familiar with. My experience to date was that state primary was ok for DD1, but nothing exceptional. My prep school experience (albeit 35 years or so ago) was fantastic. Anyhow, all good for thought and emphasises the need to look around the various schools to see what they’re like.

OP has a 20 year old so might be 40. If so she’d have been born in 1973. Her own mother could have been born in 1938 and had her aged 35.
Not that odd surely?

OP hasxexplained how could she have a?20 month old if she was born in 1973 she would have been 50 when they were born ? Unless adopted, even so quite unusual.

sorry 50 now so 48 when they were born, still quite remarkable.

We did state until eight and it’s my biggest regret that we weren’t at prep school from day one. I knew that the Early Years are the most important in the child’s life, way more important than secondary. What I didn’t realise is how much damage a bad school can do in that time.

If you have a great primary school perhaps yours will be fine (although it’s really not great to move at age eight particularly for girls who get very attached to their friends).

Anyway, it isn’t the grounding in times tables / rote learning that matters, it’s the not being shut in one noisy smelly room all day with 29 other children and the same one underresourced and overworked adult. I was shocked how much damage our crap primary managed to do to my child before we left. They learned things like “Don’t try because no one will care” “Don’t trust adults they won’t help you” “Lying is the best way to get ahead” etc. Our local Prep school is more “You get out what you put in” “Everyone is good at something” and the teachers there are so caring and have time to get to know the children. Perhaps there are crap prep schools too, dunno.

I can't answer your question OP, but I just wanted to comment (in response to some frankly bizarre statements about state schools on this thread) that at my children's Ofsted 'Good' rated state school, (1) Children are taught times tables by rote and practice to achieve speed recall (2) There are half termly and weekly spelling lists (3) There is a weekly swimming lesson for years 1-5 and (4) Plenty of children in my son's Year 4 class have taken graded music exams (albeit mostly the lower grades; there is one child in year 5 who is a grade 8 violinist). All of this is pretty standard...

It depends on the child. DS was state till 8, dd was state until 13. We moved both when state went pear shaped. One went to Oxford, the other to Cambridge.

If I had my time again, they'd have gone private at 4 and dd would never have gone to what was supposed to be SW London's most sought after CofE girls' school.

However, I don't think children can successfully transition from private to state if finances are not 100% secure. The transition from State to private is much easier.

I’m 41. Born in 1982.

it’s the not being shut in one noisy smelly room all day with 29 other children and the same one underresourced and overworked adult. I was shocked how much damage our crap primary managed to do to my child before we left. They learned things like “Don’t try because no one will care” “Don’t trust adults they won’t help you” “Lying is the best way to get ahead”

This is NOT what primary schools are like. I live in Glasgow. Yes, that big, fabulous city witb huge socio-ecomonic diversity. I work in an area with massive deprivation and all the social issues that come with that. The primary schools I experience are rays of sunshine in children's lives, the community they need with professionals who stimulate & nurture them every moment of the day. I know special teachers who make it their lives' work to better these children's outcomes. I do not recognise your scenario at all whatsoever.

And at my inner- city secondary school blighted by poverty, we had 3 of our girls go off to study medicine last year, another to St Andrews to do physics (she will be an astronaut one day, I believe it, because she is phenomenal) and scores of others into excellent universities, college courses, training & gainful employment. We have 99% positive destination figures. Every, single one of those kids is supported, nurtured & their achievements celebrated, no matter what those achievements are.

Apologies for the rant. But it boils my blood when schools are painted as failing. It's also Friday night & I'm knackered from all that cheer-leading we do day in, day out.

You may all send your children wherever you wish, but don't darken the state's door with your misplaced slurs & inaccuracies. I'm out.

Our physics teachers had doctorates

State schools employ people with PhDs as well you know. Even my very ordinary 1970s/1980s comp had teachers with first class degrees from Cambridge.

But at my prep school and secondary school we were taught foreign languages by native speakers of the same.

State schools employ native speaking MFL teachers too - this really isn’t limited to private schools.

I was at private school the whole way and I loved secondary and sixth form where I was challenged academically and given every opportunity.

But I absolutely hated my time in prep school which was all about rote learning and colouring in nearly and beautiful handwriting and reciting French and Latin poems without understanding what they meant. Ironically I loved French in secondary and considered it for my degree but prep school nearly killed my love of learning.

I'm sure prep schools have changed a lot since the 80s, I hope so anyway

I wonder what the proportion of the children of immigrants was in your school. I believe that is the hallmark of sucess frequently, very prevelant in the inner cities much less in deprived costal towns ( which have some of the poorest outcomes in the UK).

I find this post baffling when the OP hasn’t looked around ANY local schools. How can you know anything about your options when you haven’t looked?
I suspect you will be disappointed either way to be honest. Schools are very different to what you described when you attended school.
How would DD1 feel about your reflections on her education?

Yes I typed that after a bottle of wine 🤣 Need to revise my arithmetic

It was only a requirement post 2014 that children learnt up to 12x12 by rote by the end of year 4. For someone with strong opinions you don’t actually seem very up to speed on recent curriculum policy and practice. I think learning more about that would help you make decisions.