State until eight - experiences please

[DappledOliveGroves]

Prompted by the independent school thread currently kicking off on AIBU, I am interested to know more about the "State until eight" ethos.

DD2 is 20 months, so we have a bit of time to think about things.

My husband and I were both privately educated - me from aged 4, him from aged 7. My DD1 (now in her early 20s) went to independent school for secondary only, then a state sixth form. The sixth form was disastrous, though this was not necessarily the school's fault, more that DD1 chose the age of 16 to fully get into teenage rebellion, though the A-level choices she went for weren't especially inspiring at the Sixth Form.

I credit a lot of my academic success to having had an excellent grounding from aged 4 onwards. Things like knowing times tables by rote, by aged 4. Spelling lists, regular tests, being stretched academically at every level from the word go. However, I don't have much to compare this to as I don't know how I would have fared had I gone to a state school.

DD1 went to state school in London from Reception and I feel that she never had the grounding that I did. There were no regular spelling tests, no learning by rote, no languages taught by native speakers, no science labs etc. Having said that, she is very different to me and has never been especially academic.

What I want to know is whether adopting a "state til eight" approach is sensible, or whether this risks missing the fundamentally important basics being taught at the best possible level, meaning that DD2 may not get the right grounding if she went to a state school for the first few years.

Finances, wise, we could go private from the outset, but would prefer to have a few more years to save under our belts.

Does anyone have any info they can please share about whether starting independent school at 8 has worked well for your children, or if you feel they may have missed out at all?

Many thanks.

@DappledOliveGroves I started viewing schools when DC1 had just turned 2 because we were also torn between state and private (and would have needed a house move for the ideal state). It was an absolute blessing because Covid and lockdowns meant that we were unable to view anything from the time they turned 3 until they were already in school. The chances of anything similar happening again are minuscule but it taught me it is never too soon

I live in a grammar county. There’s a huge variety of primary schools. Some hardly get any Dc going to a grammar in 5 years! For a bright Dc, there’s not so many others who are similar. A decent prep will be utterly different. Just looking at the parent body will tell you that! In the well heeled areas, plenty go to the grammars and some preps cram for the 11 plus but others have a different approach. Many parents choose the preps for cramming. Others choose one because they want Wycombe Abbey! Or Eton. You have to know what your goals are and choose accordingly. There are very decent primaries if you live in the right area. However they almost certainly won’t have the same parents, clubs, sport, music or drama. Or Dc heading to Eton.

State till 7 or 8 is fine. We did as DDs went to an infant school until the end of y2 - ks1. Most move then. Not after y3!

I doubt it’s becoming more common, looking at the falling numbers at prep schools generally. It’s secondary that parents seem more likely to save for.

OP, am I reading your post correctly - you have an older child in their 20s and also a 20 month old!? That is quite a gap. State education has changed a lot in the meantime (including a strong swing back to phonics and memorization of maths facts - take a look at England’s performance in PISA, TIMSS and PIRLS over this period for the results of this. I am assuming England as you do not say anything about being in Scotland or Wales).

I’m assuming you must have been very young when you had your first - maybe when you were at university? If that was the case, you may not have had the experience to spot issues with her education or help her at home. I personally would have made sure my kids learned tables with me if the school had been hopeless, but I appreciate that a young mother trying to get onto the career ladder at the same time as raising a child may have had more difficulties with this.

Oh you are Scottish, well most people know the educatiin system is supperior certainly to that in non metropolitan coastal areas in England.

How competitive is entry for year 3? In NW London the number of places has dropped significantly in the last few years.

I'm not sure it's superior overall. A Scottish education used to be re-known worldwide, but not so much anymore. We have fallen way down the international leagues, and the SNP's Curriculum for Excellence is universally known as the Curriculum for Excrement amongst us teachers.

I'm secondary, so see the huge, negative changes. Perhaps primary is the issue in other parts of the UK? I think we'll see ours declining too if present policy continues.

Our robust monitoring & evaluation between and within schools is a big plus, though, it means no schools are allowed to drop standards on the whole.

We have fallen way down the international leagues, and the SNP's Curriculum for Excellence is universally known as the Curriculum for Excrement amongst us teachers.
Some of my colleagues have taught both sides of the border and said academic expectations are lower in Scotland and there's a near obsession with poorly designed restorative conversations for even serious behaviour issues.

Right now, as it stands, the English National Curriculum for primary aged children is quite demanding. Phonics test in Year 1, Year 2 Sats (voluntary as of this year), Year 4 multiplication test and Year 6 KS2 Sats. If a child gets near full marks in these tests they are doing very well. Nobody knows what will happen when Labour comes in and what they might change. You can find the tests online as well as the national curriculum demands. It is far from easy for many children. Many independent schools claim to teach ahead, but really don’t cover everything in detail. A good state primary school covering everything in depth will give great foundations. Of course many independent schools will sell themselves as doing more, but scratch beneath the marketing you might find that is not true.

My 4 DC largely educated into this environment in state schools were well educated. However, we had an outstanding primary and access to grammar schools too as well as comps. In primary school they all read extensively and did lots of extra curricular activities. I think kids learn a lot at home. School is only part of the picture. 1 to 1 attention from a parent when required for anything they may struggle with can be better than paying up. If you just have 1 DC at home, doing 15 minutes a day of reading and basic maths makes a huge difference.

Lots of parents at DCs state primary were professionals and educationally ambitious. I doubt it would have been too different at the local private school. They would have just played more netball, hockey and rugby which can be done out of school, if that is what you want. In fact, lots of the mums I stayed in touch with from baby groups who paid up for private schools were quite surprised that state DCs covered pretty much the same stuff, and often in lots of detail. My DC were at greater depth and most of their teachers differentiated very well for their group. They were all independent learners though so I can imagine that some DC would benefit from more individual attention. I would actually say that for bright independent learners state can be excellent as they have to get on with things themselves. We did have friends who moved DC to private schools at 7 or 8 often due to SEN, things like dyslexia, autism, dyspraxia etc. In those circumstances it is worth paying up if the private school actually does give them lots more attention, safe spaces, interventions etc. Or if a child is anxious by nature it can be worth avoiding entry exams.

@Araminta1003 completely agree, the 2014 primary curriculum, whilst too dry and too in depth from a grammar perspective is actually demanding. My DC1 who is now year 7 finished year 6 on the boundary of expected/greater depth in maths but is able to do maths at a level that I did in set 1 of year 8 back in the 90s. He’s really well educated so far considering it was free and he wasn’t at a particular good primary either! It wasn’t bad but it certainly wasn’t outstanding!

I went private all through and think my education was better than dds are getting at state

Dd1 very bright probably top 5% or more
She was bored in reception, they got all kids to do all sounds even though she could already blend etc. She could read fluently by 5yo0 chapter books through me reading with her at home. But got behind on maths. The teacher didnt say so a not met in y1 on report was a surprise. Again y2 didnt do as well at maths sats as capable of. But full marks for reading. Y3/4 covid. Where little work from school. Y6 i did work with dd on maths till she got into exceeding for maths. But she didnt do as well on reading as she should have. Full marks on spag. So imo theyve made a bright child average.
Most of achievement at sats was from the set homework...
Secondary - very little homework so far. Dd has learnt only numbers to 20 in spanish in 5 weeks.

A very self motivated child might do well at state.
And in 8 years now i dont think we've had one piece of homework marked by a teacher.

Private schools can, to some extent, be judged by destination of DCs. If Dc are going to seriously academic schools, it’s a great education. It should be the NC and well taught in depth. If Dc are heading for leading academic schools at 13 with academic scholarships why would it be poor? Preps that exist for little provision above generally are chosen by parents for small classes. I think, if you are paying, expect lots!

Therefore you don’t just get sport. My DD had a qualified music teacher. Some Dc got music scholarships at senior schools. Ditto art. DD had a wonderful art teacher and time was spent on this subject which suited dd. They took it seriously. Virtually no time for art at state school. All sorts of sports were available and for working parents, it meant life was so much easier. No running around at 3.30 for a sports lesson. DD did lacrosse. Plus the drama was brilliant. Opportunities for all and DC winning scholarships. Plus dedicated subject teachers from y5. Many preps don't have this of course but the gold standard does. Plus skiing, trips to all sorts of places to support the curriculum and great people coming into school. Loads of clubs. That’s what you should expect if you pay.

@Ebtsaqt that does sound a bit rubbish, my year 7 DC is at a very normal comp (50% get maths and English gcse) they have learnt, greetings, numbers to 20, how to ask/tell age and colours in French and German so far.

I'm in bristol op. We state educated to 11 and then on to mixed day indepedent.

Our catchment primary generally tops the table and we are very lucky to have got a place. Aroubd half the year subsequently go independent with sognificant numbers leaving at year 5.

Not an economically diverse school and lots of professional parents.

If we had the money i would have gone private from reception in a heartbeat. Our state education was fine though - but not the same level of rounding. My children's friends who were independent all the way through had a better experience (athough academically its all similar).

What Araminta said.

Out of interest how do private schools filter out disruptive children?

@londonparent321 they gently invite them to move on and encourage applications to alternatives that will suit them better. If the parents fight it, they become less gentle. Often a high performing school is the wrong environment for the disruptive child. My experience arises from the ultra competitive London Day Schools.

Private schools are also mindful that other parents are paying fees for a particular approach and not to deal with a child who is disrupting learning for other children is a breach of the implicit contract.

Failure to deal with disruption was why we moved dd from her sought after, cofe, London state school. It was having a detrimental effect on my dd and the staff didn't care about the 90% who behaved.

Private schools usually have assessment days where behaviour will be noted, or a taster day for younger children if there are no assessments. That’s one way of filtering out some disruptive children - they are less likely be offered a place.

If children are persistently disruptive once they’ve started at the school, they can be asked to leave.

As a parent how do you find out whether a child is being disruptive? I'm thinking I have no visibility into the lessons at the school, so can't tell..

At DC's school, you would know pretty quickly. They would inform you from the first instance of disruption and also give feedback on how they are managing it. You would be made aware of every single incident and as a PP said, if the parent was fighting it or not working with them, they would be looking to manage the child out. If you are working with them, their attitude is very positive. I read the behaviour policy in detail before accepting the place as I did not want my children attending a school where I did not agree with their policy

I would imagine the state sector isn't to dissimilar on the informing parent part - surely they would also make you aware if your child was being disruptive?!

if you are a parent of a disruptive child, the teacher will surely let you know if the disruption level is a concern. if your child attends the school with a disruptive child in a class they (your DCs) will tell you about it/complain so thats when the other parents become aware (and very unhappy about it).

We were in a good leafy suburb area where my child started Reception and we have had a horrible experience. She was bitten by another child, nothing was done by the teacher, we moved abroad (for personal reasons) where she goes to an excellent private British school and she has swimming every week, spelling tests, a bit of French language and she loves it. If you can afford it then go for private education from the start.