My yr2 DD progress - am I right to be a bit concerned?

[Towmcir]

My DD started year 2 in September. She is August born. When I refer to the groups, there’s obvious ability grouping in the class even though the kids/parents aren’t told, six children out of a class of 30 are in each group, five groups in the class.

In reception, she was doing really well and the teacher had nothing but praise (other than that she sometimes needed brought back to task). She was in the “top group” for maths, phonics and reading.

Similar story for year 1, although after Easter in year one she was moved down to the second ability group in phonics and reading.

In year 2, she’s been moved down again to the fourth (out of 5) ability group for phonics and third for reading, and down to the third group in maths. We’ve just had parents evening and the teacher shrugged it off as the ability groups are just reflective of the class and she’s doing ok, but couldn’t give any answer at all when we asked why our DD wasn’t making progress at similar rates to her peers and was now seemingly going backwards (both in ability as well as groups). We know it’s knocked her confidence massively going downwards in the groups as she did have pride that she was up there.

I know the groupings aren’t the end of the world as it’s out of our control how well other children are doing and someone will always be lowest etc, but the lack of actual progress and the swift fall down the groups does worry us (especially when we believed she was doing great being in the top groups in reception/year 1 as a summer born, and that hopefully meant she wouldn’t struggle later).

Because the teacher has brushed us off, we’re not sure what to do. Part of me wants to leave it a while, but the other part just wants to understand what is going on to try to ensure she doesn’t actually fall behind where she’s meant to be.

I don’t want to heap pressure on my daughter, but if there’s things we can help with at home we will but this is hard if we’re being told things are fine at school!

What would you do here?

I would try to drill down a bit more into why the lack of progress.

In order to do so I'd try to work out where she is now.

Did she do the year 1 phonics check? Do you know what she got?

Do you read with her often? If so, and the books that come from school are in a reading scheme then the schemes usually have a rough "this is where we expect kids to be reading these books" if you Google.

Maths - in year 2 she will be working with numbers up to 100, adding and subtracting 2 digit numbers using number lines and partitioning, 2,5 and 10 times tables and word problems with all of those.

That's the expected curriculum but the greater depth children will be ahead - so more times tables, bigger numbers, more division.

It might also be worth booking an eye test and a hearing test as the two most common reasons students don't make progress at primary are eye and hearing problems.

Often the child doesn't know they have the problems as they think everyone sees/hears like that.

I think this can happen naturally, as the children who were less less ready to start school catch up. I was going to ask if your DD is one of the older ones, but I see she's August born. Was she an unusually mature 4 year old?

I know that the groups in my DC's class changed a lot in these years (although as above, usually it was the older ones dropping down and the younger ones moving up).

What do you mean when you say that your DD is going backwards in terms of ability as well as in groups? Is she actually losing skills?

I'm sure you know this already, but the best thing is to read with her a lot at home. However, I do think it's reasonable for you to feel concerned and want to chat to the teacher in a bit more detail about this.

@Octavia64 Thank you so much for your reply - these type of questions are making me really think about the answers!

Phonics - she got 39/40 in the phonics screening, so very well in my eyes! This probably doesn’t tell the full story as her spelling isn’t great and I assume this forms part of phonics.

Reading - We do read with her every night. This is now her reading everything to us with short chapter books (used to be either easier books, or us doing a page each). In our eyes, she reads OK but sometimes pauses especially when moving lines when she loses her place and sometimes takes guesses at words she doesn’t know (although this is probably one word in a chapter - I get that this is still problematic because she doesn’t stop to use phonics to decode). In terms of class reading books, they use Little Wandle and she’s on Phase 5, Set 4 which is crazily easy for her. I’m not sure if the other groups are reading higher or not, given this is meant to be a scheme where the class go together).

Maths - last year she could add two double digit numbers, this year she says she can’t. She seems to know her 2 and 10 times tables to recall any multiple and can work out 5s quite quickly. I don’t see any specific issue interpreting more verbal questions, if she’ll sit still to do them.

I’m not expecting her to be at the top, but it’s the quick drops that are concerning - either she was left in the top groups with no support for too long and is now behind or something else isn’t quite right.

We have regular eye tests as she does wear glasses (although not very strong).

We will look into the hearing side too, I hadn’t considered that but it makes complete sense.

Thank you again

She’s August born and was emotionally not ready to start school, but academically probably was. She still seems young compared to most in her class, so if they are now more receptive to learning it could be that. She was/is bright, but not studious if that makes sense?

We read every night without fail, and sometimes in the day too. Again, maybe this gave her a good start and now she’s falling back because others have started reading?

As I’ve said, I’m not precious about what group she is in but it is concerning that it’s been shifted down multiple times so quickly. I think she’s embarrassed by it, but hasn’t said that explicitly and we try to stay clear of the topic of groups because she seems to get defensive about it.

It does sound unusual as summer borns usually catch up.
What book band is she on?
We do cgp books at home.
Does school use any online maths.
Also i would bear in mind that (at our school anyway) boys seem to be better at maths. And its because they can be competitive and work faster.
Dd2 is very good at maths but still some kids in class are doing better. Some have older siblings so compete with them or parents know what ot expect next.
I think this year there will be no ks1 sats in y2 but they are a good guide as to where kids should be by the end of the year.
If you have a look at the papers do you think she will struggle

I think we thought that because she was doing well in the earlier years as a summer born, she’d stay doing well. Quite naive evidently!

The school use Little Wandle (whole class teaching) not book bands, but at home she’s reading books that are lime/brown when I’ve looked what they would be and she’s not struggling (probably one word wrong every few pages), reasonable flow and seems to understand what’s happening. It’s probably the reading I’m most surprised she’s been moved down in.

I’ve had a quick look at the SAT papers and I don’t think she’d struggle much, with anything but actually sitting still long enough to do them.

I’m starting to think that this is behaviour related (is she actually engaging at all at school?) because with us she can do things.

With maths I think she’s just lost her confidence and now doesn’t want to try. I wonder if this is similar in the school setting for everything she does, and if she’s just switched off from trying.

I’ve asked the school for a follow up meeting because I’m concerned that parents evening didn’t really alleviate any of my concerns. If she’s not engaging, I want to know and come up with a plan.

you seem to have an underlying assumption that a child who is top set in reception should remain top set. In reality, kids learn at different paces and cadences - it isnt a race, and it definitely shouldn’t be a competition against others in the class. It doesn’t sound like she is struggling - she is still very much middle of the range within her class and meeting expectations - she just isn’t the best any more, for the moment.

it sounds like too much was made early on of being top set. Instead of focusing on relative performance (assuming she is meeting expectations for progress), the focus should be on her own educational journey, and in particular recognising effort over achievement at this stage. It is an important life lesson that sometimes things come easy, and sometimes we have to work a bit harder to get the same result as someone else.

Something like the game Hit the Button online would improve her Maths/ numbers. 5 mins a day would speed her up on adding/ subtraction etc. Don't go overboard!
Also being a younger child she might be slower actually doing the work and better orally. This comes more to the fore as children go up the classes as they write more and Maths would also involvemore handwork. .
If you think this might be the case maybe doing some hand exercises found online might help with strength as she might be tiring earlier than some of the older ones.

I would expect children to have finished phase 5 by the end of year 1. So phase 5, set 4 after 1/2 term of Y2 seems low to me. If she's is behind, they should have identified it and have put some support in place to help boost her back up.

I would ask the teacher to check her reading level and make sure she has the right books coming home. I would also ask them for more ways to help at home.

Ask if the school are using the little wandle spelling scheme for y2 - it's new this year. if so, they should have just reviewed phase 5 and be moving on to bridge to spelling which should support your DD.

Speak to the teacher about the impact of being moved 'down' the groups. I haven't used ability groups in this way for years now as it does nothing to build confidence.

I had no concern at all about her being moved from the top group (places 1-6) to the second group (places 7-12). Things are fluid and of course there is movement.

I do have a concern that she’s moved from the top group to the second bottom (places 19-24) within the space of one term, and the teacher just says she’s doing fine.

I feel I need to know what has changed. If there’s a different assessment focus it would be good to understand, if she’s really struggling it would be good to know so we can help.

If anything, the movement in groups illustrate she’s not making the same progress as most of her peers. We just want to know why.

Are you certain that they are in ability groups? It's not considered best practise in teaching lately. Maybe the y2 teacher is organising the children in a different way.

So thats oxford reading tree type band lime or brown? Is she reading the the whole book in say 2 sessions?
It maybe with the reading they are not good at assessing. Ds they kept on scheme but he had read the dard blue and dark red book meant for y5 etc it was ridiculous. Then he moved to y3 and all fine off scheme now straight away.

From lime she can just read any short chapter book at home.

To clarify i didnt mean all summer borns catch up, just that they make more progress than other kids so not usually going from good to behind.

However dd1 jun born could read chapter books by end of reception. Y2 sats only lost 2 marks. But by y6 the other kids caught up and many also got greater depth (over 110). As the skills are different, and maybe because the school focussed on other kids. But in maths she went
Met reception, didnt meet y1, met y2-5, exceeded y6. I think the concentration can be a lot for the youngest. Then they are slower too.

Ds is deferred and while still not top, the teachers have been much more positive. He did still as above got behind on reading.

You say it's knocked her confidence? she is too young to be aware that there are groups based on ability in her class. I don't remember noticing things like that until I was in year 5/6. When I worked at a school none of the year 2s were aware of it.
I don't think it's that big of a deal not everyone gets to be the best at everything. What you can do though is practice practice practice at home reading, spelling maths etc.

I honestly have no understanding at all about Little Wandle. To me it’s always been way too easy at every stage, even when she was in the top group in terms of the books. I do appreciate they’ve already read them at school before home, but they are a joke as far as I am concerned and I have no idea in terms of reading/understanding what issue they’ve picked up with her reading other than some long pauses when she loses her place (although that very rarely happens with books so short they only have a few lines on a page, it’s mainly the chapter books with crammed lines).

I’ll ask about the spelling scheme - they get spellings each week but I don’t think these are actually linked to a scheme and she’s good at these. Her spelling in open writing is pretty poor I think, but it is still “phonetically plausible” which they kept talking about - I’ve got no idea when spelling is meant to get more in line with being correct rather than just plausible.

I just want more information to put my mind at ease that she’s meeting her potential. If we knew the ”whys” it might be an obvious solution or an acceptance that she’s actually working at the level she’s meant to.

The teacher said our daughter/we shouldn’t be aware of groups and we laughed in her face - our daughter can recite the children in each group and who’s moved where! It’s obvious which groups are which based upon the children in them and the movement over the years.

Pretty sure, and the teacher didn’t deny it just said the kids shouldn’t know.

There’s not been too much movement other than our daughter and a few other outliers. DD has told us all the changes and she’s usually reliable…

Yes, Oxford Reading Tree brown/lime would be what she would choose for herself and read in a couple of sessions. She’d read about 30/40 pages to us and then finish off anything else herself on the same night (unless she didn’t like the book and chose to read something else).

She’s been reading these books since early year 1 I think, but quicker/more confidently now.

I’m possibly regretting our decision not to defer now, even though I was sure it was the right thing up until a few weeks ago.

She is absolutely not too young to be aware. She’s been aware since reception - maybe not of the exact ordering of the 2/3/4 groups, but definitely the top and bottom.

She definitely understands the system as she’s spotted the “swaps” so for example knows she’s now in a group that someone went down to the bottom group.

I’m not against her being in any group if it’s appropriate and she’s getting the help she needs, I just feel a bit blindsided by it and being told everything is fine!

I would have expected her to be in one of the top groups...
Have you listed these books as well in her reading diary?
Did she get full marks on the phonics check?

And yes kids are very aware.
My 11yo knew she was in wrong maths group immediately.

If she's fluently reading chapter books to you it sounds very odd that she's in set 4 of 5. I wouldn't expect that over half of a Y2 class would be able to do that at this point in the year.

She got 39/40 in the phonics screening, so pretty good!

Her spelling/writing isn’t great, but I don’t know how closely this is linked to phonics groups?

I’ve listed the books we read in the reading diary, but all it ever gets is a tick.

The only thing I can think is that she’s not bothering to try at school and has got in the habit of saying she can’t do things when she can and/or has issues concentrating more than others. This definitely applies to maths at home, when she’ll be adamant she can’t do something one day but can do it in a split second the next!

All I can think is that she’s purposely not trying at reading at school (which is odd because she does it out loud to us voluntarily nearly every night, with some other nights her just asking to read to herself).

The other thing is I have no idea quite how perfect the school expect them to be at reading. At home she’ll make an error every couple of pages (either guessing a word or missing/adding a word) but will correct if asked to reread so it seems a careless mistake that most people would make a few of every couple of hundred words - I certainly would, out of haste/my mind being quicker than my mouth.

I’m not necessarily trying to argue she should be higher in the groups, just concerned that something is holding her back.

If it’s something we know she can do, it’s then a discussion about what isn’t working in the classroom for her. If she’s just found her place, that’s fine too.

The group she is in will be on order to try and give her the teaching that best suits her needs. She needs to know it is not a personal judgement on her.

At this age the August birthday is highly relevant. It is good that she is getting the right level for her.

It is very common indeed for parents to think their child can do stuff at home so why is it not showing up in school - but the teachers are trying to ensure that the learning has depth - and understanding of underlying concepts as well superficial rote parroting.