My yr2 DD progress - am I right to be a bit concerned?

[Towmcir]

My DD started year 2 in September. She is August born. When I refer to the groups, there’s obvious ability grouping in the class even though the kids/parents aren’t told, six children out of a class of 30 are in each group, five groups in the class.

In reception, she was doing really well and the teacher had nothing but praise (other than that she sometimes needed brought back to task). She was in the “top group” for maths, phonics and reading.

Similar story for year 1, although after Easter in year one she was moved down to the second ability group in phonics and reading.

In year 2, she’s been moved down again to the fourth (out of 5) ability group for phonics and third for reading, and down to the third group in maths. We’ve just had parents evening and the teacher shrugged it off as the ability groups are just reflective of the class and she’s doing ok, but couldn’t give any answer at all when we asked why our DD wasn’t making progress at similar rates to her peers and was now seemingly going backwards (both in ability as well as groups). We know it’s knocked her confidence massively going downwards in the groups as she did have pride that she was up there.

I know the groupings aren’t the end of the world as it’s out of our control how well other children are doing and someone will always be lowest etc, but the lack of actual progress and the swift fall down the groups does worry us (especially when we believed she was doing great being in the top groups in reception/year 1 as a summer born, and that hopefully meant she wouldn’t struggle later).

Because the teacher has brushed us off, we’re not sure what to do. Part of me wants to leave it a while, but the other part just wants to understand what is going on to try to ensure she doesn’t actually fall behind where she’s meant to be.

I don’t want to heap pressure on my daughter, but if there’s things we can help with at home we will but this is hard if we’re being told things are fine at school!

What would you do here?

Can you elaborate on why you’d expect the August birthday to be more relevant now (rather than in reception and year 1)? Is it to do with maturity and the switch to more formal teaching where being naturally clever no longer cuts it?

I agree, if the teaching is correct for her then it’s the correct group. I mentioned earlier in the thread that it’s definitely a possibility she was incorrectly in the top group for a period, which has probably done her a disservice if that group was left to it more…

Perhaps attitudes to learning. Have a read about ‘growth mindset’. Some children struggle to adapt once they are ‘ not getting it right all of the time’ when in fact, process, resilience and a ‘have a go’ attitude are vital.
This is one link, there are loads.
https://www.edglossary.org/growth-mindset/

Maybe if you have another parents eve later in the year, ask if she is on course fir exceeding and if not what else needs to be focussed on.
It doesnt sound like she is right about being in 4/5. Unless it could be based on spelling or writing.
Or you are in a private school or grammar area etc
I doubt more than 6 kids in my dd 30 were free readers (past lime band) by start y2.

She can do things at home, and obviously could in school until Easter term year 1.

It’s the very quick drop from top 20% to bottom 40% within a term I’m more concerned at when the teacher is happily saying she’s doing well.

I would say that she’s probably not doing that well if she’s made enough progress to be leapfrogged in groups by 40% of the class, and that she’s struggling with something that the typical child in the class isn’t…

I’m not trying to demand she’s in a higher group at all, just understand what’s behind such a sudden drop.

The kids always know the group system, and teachers often unconsciously follow a pattern when they try to hide the groups. Dds have had animal groups (lion was top and elephant bottom...), shapes (pentagon top, circle bottom)...they can always work it out. Then as they get older it's 'Oh I'm definitely top set because x and y are in my group'.

It honestly could be this - she’s used to achieving and it coming easily and I think she’d rather not try than get it wrong.

If the teacher said this I’d be nodding along and in total agreement that the lower groups can help build confidence, but the teacher just said she was fine…

I’ll have a read and see whether this sounds right. Thank you.

We've been through similar.
The work load in year 2 really ramps up, and summer borns can find themselves fighting to keep up.

It's not a bad thing, the children will be set on tables that gives them the level of support required for their skill set. They also move away from phonics in year 2 and it becomes more about the spelling of a word rather than a sound.

My summer born found the first half of year 2 incredibly hard, the work load was high, the play time was reduced, there was more structure and more subjects to learn about. Meaning instead of focus being on the core phonics and reading plus maths suddenly they have science, art, history etc. Thrown in there too. So they have to apply mental work to a broader area rather than an acute focus.

Keep an eye on it but for now I'd watch and wait. My summerborn exceeded her expected stage in year 2.

If state maybe look at what % are getting exceeding at ks1 or ks2 sats.
As the school thinking dc wasnt great at maths was probably in our case because a very high % got exceeding at y6. Even though dd not in top 9% nationally they werent giving the exceeding on reports. And such high ability knocked dd confidence.
Some kids do purposely hide what they are capable of. Especially if they feel ignored.

She got exceeds/greater depth (or whatever it’s called now) in maths and one of the more English ones (possibly reading) last year, and met in the other (possibly writing).

This teacher just said “it’s too early to tell”, which to be fair it is.

It’s not a private school or in a grammar area, just a run of the mill local school.

I’ve just hear that the teacher will have another meeting after half term next week, so I’ll need to think about exactly what I’m going to say.

Thank you for your reply.

I have wondered whether that’s the case (she really misses the free play time), but the teacher seemed to shrug it off.

I do think she’s finding it tough, but it’s so hard to know when she doesn’t say so herself. She’s definitely more of a handful at home than she was, and hasn’t really found her rhythm in year two yet.

It does seem to be the older kids back at the top in groups, most of the movement seems to be younger kids in the year going downwards (although not to the extent of my daughter!).

Hopefully she finds her place soon, the moving groups is unsettling for her.

Just as a follow up, year 2 teacher has messaged and said they’ll speak to the year 1 teacher from last year before we meet after half term.

Fingers crossed this means there’s actually a little bit more understanding about the whole picture and there can be a constructive discussion and/or our minds can be put at rest.

If she was exceeding i think the drop is very likely wrong /a misunderstanding.

I just want to pick up on a couple of things.

Firstly, nessy might help with her spellings

www.nessy.com/en-gb/product/nessy-reading-and-spelling-home

It really helped my son who was dyslexic.

Also, you say about her losing her place sometimes in chapter books.
This is something of a long shot, but it's possible she has an eye tracking problem - that is when she is moving her eyes to refocus she loses track of where she is going.
It causes problems copying from the board, slows down reading, etc.
(Again, my son had it)

www.optometrists.org/vision-therapy/guide-vision-and-learning-difficulties/2021-update-vision-therapy-for-learning/2021-update-vision-therapy-for-eye-tracking/

We did some exercises with him for about a year to strengthen the tracking muscles which made a real difference.

You would need to see an optometrist rather than an optician to look and see if that is the issue.

So she was exceeding/exceeding/met in Year 1, is reading lime/brown easily and can work with numbers to 100? This is not concerning in terms of her learning. In fact, she's doing better than most children do by the end of Year 2.

When she talks about "groups", what does she say? Does each group have different teaching? The same teaching but different work to complete? Or the same work as all of the other groups? I'm asking because I don't know of any school that has ability groups like you've described here, any more.

How are you sure that she's been moved due to "ability" and not for another reason? Could it be that she talks to everyone so the teacher is moving her to see if there's a better place for her to sit to stop distracting others?

How are her comprehension skills?

Has she moved groups because due to her spelling and writing?

Teacher didn’t act like it was a mistake, but I do appreciate she was on the spot (even though we were trying not to put her under pressure).

Maybe after a bit of time to think about it there will be an identified mistake and/or reason behind it.

There’s a few things on the list of the eye tracking that really resonate (although a lot do sound quite generic - like clumsiness).

How did you find an optometrist? When I’ve googled it’s just what I’d class as opticians coming up (and American sites).

I’ll give Nessy a look and see if I think it might help.

Correct for where her report said she was at at the end of year one. I’m not sure I’d say lime/brown are easy for her (she’s my oldest and I’ve got absolutely no comparison about quite how perfectly books would need to be read on the reading scheme, as school uses Little Wandle), but she’s happy to choose them herself and read a couple of chapters out loud and then solo read them at bedtime so at the very least she’s not finding them too difficult to enjoy. She comprehends the text well and can recall the story and details and can answer questions (although sometimes a “why do you think” type questions where it’s not explicitly written in the text do trip her up - she’s not the best at feelings generally, so picking up on subtleties wouldn’t be a strong point).

They all still do reading in their “group”, so different books although I’m not sure whether they are actually reading different level books, given Little Wandle is meant to be the whole class at the same level.

I think phonics is taught full class, but then has extra “group work”. Again, following Little Wandle so could be the same?

I suspect Little Wandle is the reason for these groups as the scheme requires group reading - although I’d personally have thought that mixed ability groups would make sense given the emphasis on whole class teaching….

For maths, I’m not sure how it’s taught but there’s definitely differentiation in the work set and different groups get different work but on the same topic. For maths in particular, her confidence is now low because she knows she’s not getting the harder work, which seems like a self fulfilling prophecy as she’s less inclined to try.

There 100% is ability groups and this has been the case since reception, and I’ve head parents with older kids talking about their groups so it seems like it continues throughout. The teachers are mostly in their 20s/30s so I’m a bit surprised they continue doing it if it’s so unusual now, but I suppose one strong voice can outweigh many other quieter ones.

In terms of behaviour, the only negative we’ve had so far is that sometimes she daydreams and needs reminded to listen. If anything, she’s too shy - but the groups she’s now in have more louder kids in so if the move is for behaviour purposes it’s to try and get her good behaviour to run off on the others….. I’d be absolutely fuming if this was the case, but seems unlikely it’s the only reason she’s been moved.

What's her comprehension like? That's the only reason I can think of why she might be struggling. Does she understand what she has read?

Sorry saw your update
As others said it does sound like she might have a fixed mindset.
At my school they are all mixed ability groups except for the ones who need A lot of support. I move children round for other reasons than ability. Sometimes, the group just does not blend.

I’ve not really got anything to compare to, but she does seem to understand things as in she can retell a story and pick out facts etc. She struggles more with the more “feelings” questions, where the answer isn’t given in the text but you can pick up from cues. I’m not sure how much contextual information they are meant to be able to interpret to be honest.

If comprehension is the reason that’s fair enough, I’d just like to know what the reason for such a rapid change in “class standing” seemingly with no concern from the teachers!

I wonder if going in to the meeting with her teacher with some questions planned would help.

One that I would suggest is to ask whether she is on track for met/greater depth/greater depth still? Depending on how they assess, they may be able to give an instant answer, or they may not, but at least it flags up where she was and clarifies your concern. If she's not longer being given the "hardest work," it would suggest she's not longer working at greater depth in maths, so that does indicate a drop.

The issues that you are bringing up are exactly why most schools avoid "groups" like this - pupils feel disheartened when their group changes, and feel no agency in the level of difficulty in their work.

Also ask about her learning behaviours - does she maintain focus on her work, does she handle challenge well/have a growth mindset?

The teacher will be saying they're not concerned, because it isn't a big concern from their point of you. But it rightly is your biggest concern, so do ask and try to see what's going on.

The other thing to note is that they may be grouped for ability, but sometimes there is more than one group at each ability level. Has she definitely moved down, or could she have moved sideways? There's likely to be more than 6 kids doing the same work, even if it's differentiated.

Children do seem to shift groups quite a bit in year 1 and year 2. Sometimes the shift can be due to age, but where I've taught in the past it's also been about language level. Children who came in speaking/understanding very well in reception tended to be in the top groups. As the language skills of some of the other children improved, they seemed to be doing better later.

DD's friend went home really upset because she'd been moved down a reading group. The teacher hadn't said that, but she was part of a threesome who had always been in top groups for everything, and she was no longer in the same group as the other two, so it was the obvious conclusion. It turned out that the teacher had decided to have two equivalent top groups, so there was no demotion.

Thanks for the productive ideas.

Agree that the teacher isn’t concerned as they’ll be looking at the class as a whole and I doubt there’s much chance she won’t get “met” at the end of the year and she’s not causing issues in the class with behaviour.

If the group changes aren’t a mistake, I do think they’re down to learning behaviours/attitude as she maybe doesn’t try as hard as she should and setbacks (like being moved groups!) aren’t handled well by her at home which I assume feeds into the classroom (although it seems she’s putting on a brave face in the classroom and doing the “I don’t care” thing whilst she’s there).

If it’s behaviour related, it’s probably even more important to understand the root of it, as it would be an ongoing problem!

Again, just to reiterate because I haven’t said it in a while - I’m not on a witch-hunt to get her up the groups, but more concerned that if there’s not a reason and the slide continues she could have gone from top to bottom group in two terms!