Primary education for the modern world

[ThinkingForward]

Discussion on how to reform the primary school offering to make it suitable for modern britain

> benefits of having more directed hours of experiences and learning
> more diverse educational offering
> societal benefits: broader opportunities for parents, families an the economy

I am a father of a 6 yr old dc, and both my wife and i work full time, she works for the NHS and i run my own business(es). We have elderly parents, who also require our input and limited family support (our son gets picked up by my mum 1 day a week and she has him for 2-3 hrs).

The need to better provisioning of early years childcare is often highlighted, however there is little public discussion about the effects of a Victorian timetable on modern society, especially at primary school level.

This touches nearly every aspect of society,
a) educational regression of pupils after long summer holidays
b) lack of holiday provision for students and family's that receive pupil premium (from school meals to welfare checks)
c) discriminatory effects on women's earning, career progression and pension provision. Furthermore the effect on families/ relationship stability as a consequential outcome.
i. on breakdown of relationships this can lead to loss of homes and employment, in some case lead to problems of homelessness and addiction for the parent without the children
ii compounds disadvantage, for children especially if extended family support isnt available.
d) environmental impact of a 5 day vs 4 day week for example (additional heating, travel etc), if the current level of funding was capped then a shorter week with longer days may provide additional opportunities for parents to gain good quality employment
i. economic impact of the mismatch between typical holiday allowance (4-6 weeks for full time adult) and 13 weeks school holiday.
f) impact from unauthorized absence due to rigid holiday patterns and consequential high prices of travel

Forster introduced the education act in 1870, even at this stage the need for continuous evolution was recognized in the introductory speech. The timetable is probably one of the only recognisable elements of the schools system from 150 years ago. So much of our society has changed and the persistence with this timetable reinforces discrimination and could be seen as a root of many negative outcomes especially for women. Impacting short and long term earnings as well as pensions in retirement, but this also changes the dynamics of the economy, family life and even the environment. The academic literature indicates that long holidays are not to the children's benefit, with the loss of skills over these longer breaks. The travel industry becries the seasonality of holiday, and justifies its crazy pricing as a result of this.. So who actually benefits from a 150 year old timetable?

Almost every section of society would benefit from reviewing the school timetable, it would be ideal if there was more funding for more provision, but there seems to be almost no loosers from having a more fit for purpose timetable. Different funding options for the short, medium and long term could be considered. For example use of the tax free childcare allowance. As schools provides good quality educational options and childcare at a lower cost than the private provision (typical outside funding rates are around £4.20/pupil per hour with most priviate provision being 25-50% more for "just childcare"). Furthermore the marginal cost for increasing this provision would be modest as there would be mainly variable (additional direct staff and minimal additional overhead).

Working patterns have been brought into sharp focus following C19 and the working from home revolution. There are plenty of opportunities to look at different school and working patterns, for example a 4 day school week with longer days. This might allow those that work around school drop off and pick up to improve their employment opportunities, cut there travel costs and the school to only heat the school 4 days a week . Similarly a 45-46 week schedule then most 2 parent families could manage childcare with their normal holiday although this would be a challenge, but would not create such dependence on family friends, private provision etc to be able to manage the holidays.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

OP
You might want to do some digging on the changes to ITT recruitment targets or have a look at some of NobleGiraffe's threads on this topic.

There's an issue with recruitment and retention that's been getting worse over time.

It sounds that what you want is an education system that basically has your children for most of their waking day for most of their year, with staff doing everything from teaching maths to proving social time, to a full range of experience that tick your boxes. People are telling you the problems with some of your suggestions and it doesn't seem like you're taking them on board.

DH and I often talk about middle class neglect. We've seen it through doing volunteer stuff.

It's basically parents who want to outsource parenting to third parties cos they can't be arsed. They also want to pay the barest minimum for it.

This means the kid fails to get love and crucial emotional support. The result is awful. Usually rebellion of some description in order to try and get the attention of the parents. Or eating disorders.

You need to be there for your kids.

If you prioritise work over them they know.

You could also attract more experienced teacher onto the longer contract by making there student loan convertible to a preferential scheme. Im sure i could devise a few other (dastardly) schemes but there is many in government who are better placed to do so.

And what about those of us even more experienced teachers who still have 20 years to go and don’t have any student loans?

What are your views on the current retention and recruitment crisis in teaching, OP? Why do you think people don’t want to stay in teaching? Do you think moving their working year from 39 weeks to 45 weeks and telling them to work longer days will affect this problem at all?

If shorter holidays and longer teaching days were introduced I'd be gone. I already do at least 4 hours a day above contracted hours. Increase those and I'd never ever see my children and also have no time to sleep.

Children aren't mini-adults, there's a reason why schools don't resemble workplaces in terms of hours and holidays - it isn't appropriate for children.

@Shinyandnew1

There will be some teachers who change suits there will be some that dont, i was just giving a possible example, as many people have said we dont make government policy. For some teachers the idea of 2 weeks of flexi holiday (where they could book in term time) might be quite attractive. Especially those that are older or younger without children at home themselves.

redtoothbrush, many families have a hybrid approach to parenting, i think this common across all primates (this is one evolutionary reason for the menopause but lets leave that alone). So in our case DS spends one afternoon after school with one set a week and then a day a month with the others as they are much further away. We cover ~3 days a week with ASC and 4 days BSC, sometimes this goes up, NHS shift patterns and on call can be pretty brutal on families so its unavoidable. Ironically its even worse with family who both parents are in NHS they ended up with a nanny.

@LolaSmiles yeah im aware they are at 97% of target and 74% i think this year. There is alot of Covid effect in these results. Retention is an issue, it is in many work places. There are lots of questions about how to create an adequate career in teaching, from a MBTI perspective many of the personality types who make good teachers are may be less suited to other types of roles which are seen as progression. There has been big bunfights in the past about deputy head posts and staff post blocking (no going to headships, as it was alot of extra work) this created problems with getting enough experience building pathways to leadership roles. This was seen as a local problem but i could imagine its more wide spread.

@PriamFarrl

to discuss any topic you must define the nomenclature of the points.... thus cant really be moot. Precision in definition is why english has so many words, and is efficient in debate (certainly room to improve this however... we should really adopt "fika" from swedish). Without a common understanding of these definitions and additional precision this can add its like debating the difference between a bee and a wasp and calling them both just "insects". Its just makes everything much harder to understand and more long winded.

from a MBTI perspective many of the personality types who make good teachers are may be less suited to other types of roles which are seen as progression

Oh no. Myers-Briggs is pseudoscience bollocks. Do people still pay it any attention? I thought it went out in the 90s.

The problem you see is that teachers don't want to be Head Teachers because it's a completely different job away from the children. It's not about suitability or the wrong kind of personality, it's that it is not why teachers go into teaching.

Lots, however, really do want to do it, do it well and use their existing skills to manage it.

We don't want experienced teachers all moving into management anyway. We need the best ones in the classroom.

Hybrid fine.

Seeing your own kids for just a few hours during the week on a permanent basis and expecting others to do the parenting role.

Not ok.

What you say seems to fall firmly into the latter.

🙄

Do you talk like this in real life? It's exhausting.

When teaching English to 6th formers, there often comes a point where they start to over-write. To use their vocabulary to show off instead of to inform. It is particularly noticeable when the punctuation and sentence structure is confusing.

If you were my student, I would go over some of your writing and ask you to cut it down, simplify it, clarify it and tidy up your sentences. Use the big words, by all means, but use them properly.

I think the skill of succinct communication is undervalued.

This is what teachers can do...

Apologies if that was rude or patronising (I sort of know it was!). I just can't abide pomposity and you are coming off as particularly pompous at present!

'AngryGreasedSantaCatcus

Despite the bile spouted on here i dont want a "personalised service", i really want the opposite, better integrated options for all. Thus high quality (whatever it is) needs to cover all the days the school is open, and some kind of holiday club options ideally for those other periods..

The point is that if you work shifts you dont need all the options all at the same time. Not everyone has a fixed schedule.

Unless you can wiggle your nose or wave a wand then its difficult to get a child from bed to school in under an hour especially if you want to walk or get them to cycle, then another ~2-hrs most evenings. I think you will find many dads see there kids in the week alot less.

So (1+2)x 5= 4 in the Diane Abbot school of maths anyway.

For some teachers the idea of 2 weeks of flexi holiday (where they could book in term time) might be quite attractive. Especially those that are older or younger without children at home themselves-

2 weeks flexi holiday in exchange for losing 6 weeks?

@lifeissweet

i tried short and sweet

ie @PriamFarrl please define

Childcare:

Education:

And i got its a moot point.... where do i do from there?I can only think that she didnt why i asked the question so we tried throwing the websters lexicon at it and see if that gets us any further.

I firmly believe in simple English used well to explain complex ideas is often harder to do than word salad. Word salad is often used to try and intimidate others into silence by trying to demonstrate intellectual superiority over others.

Personally I see it a mile off and do the massive eye roll. Others simply switch off and can't be arsed to actually bother to read it.

Either way it often has this effect of alienating.

This is also why a lot of intellectual snobs have been so aghast at how Trump managed to drum up a crowd. I don't agree with him in the slightest but his style of talking was at the level of a nine year old. The average reading age in the UK is shockingly actually only nine years old too. But this explains why Trump had so much reach to certain groups that others even within his own party simply don't.

It's an observation which is exceptionally useful in terms of learning how to engage and gain support.

Communication skills definitely aren't improved by using word salad to look clever.

You will have to forgive me. I'm confused.

I went back through @PriamFarrl's posts to find out what prompted this response and all I have seen are some rebuttals of your ideas, a few short comments and then one where she says that your language is fancy, that you have used the wrong there/their/they're and that you wrote 'mute point', when it should have been moot point.

I can't marry up the posts with your response and I'm a bit baffled.

What's happening?

@RedToothBrush Not quite sure what world you are in. Many families need both parents to work. Many self employed people work long hours and at weekends. It’s not a choice. It’s not greed either. Many don’t have grandparents or relatives to help. They need your reviled outsourced help. Its not they they cannot be bothered.

It’s all very well for SAHM or D to dislike how other people parent but, in effect, they are privileged parents. It’s not a case of not being arsed. It’s often a case of women pursuing their career. Also men out during theirs. Both have the right to do this. Parents parent in different ways. Would you think hospital consultants should not work beyond school hours? Or working people should not have Dc at all? That way provision of services in the future will grind to a halt.

However I can agree that a fair price should be paid for childcare. This is not easy to do though with people working many hours for low pay themselves. Even people trying to keep their careers on track find childcare very expensive in terms of the proportion of their earnings. With more snd more people paying higher rate tax, this will only get worse.

There is also an argument for using school buildings effectively. For the benefit of the community. So schools often explore what they can do for the wider community and have decent after school provision. Teachers are not involved but parents value it. Surely working as a community is best for everyone!!

I am somewhere all the parents work but do put in the effort to parent and don't see it as something to be outsourced to the degree op does. They actually like their children.

There isn't really a distinction. Legally school isn't childcare. The local authority is responsible for making sure your child is safe and receives an education. Not that you receive childcare. One of the ways the fulfill this is by ensuring there are sufficient school places in their local authority. They also have teams for home ed families, Sen families etc. The expectation on you as a parent is to ensure your child is educated. You can fulfill that expectation by choosing to send your child to school, at which point you're passing that expectation on them.
In exchange, you have to accept their policies and the ways they choose to do things. They are allowed to change their offer at any point, and you are allowed to pack your bags and decide, actually I'm going to choose something else to fulfil my duty. The duty that is providing an education for my child. There is a surprisingly small amount of statutory duties a school has. There is lots of guidance, but that is different to statutory duties.

Schools are legally obligated to open for 190 days/380 sessions per year. As far as I understand, someone may correct me, this is the only legal requirement as of right now when it comes to opening. Everything else is guidance. Not a statutory duty. This doesn't mean that schools shouldn't follow guidance or get judged on it. They do.

There has been much contention about this from the current government. I'm not sure if you've seen this but here is the guidance for how long the school week should be from Sept. Interestingly, this includes break and lunch.
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/the-32-5-hour-school-week-what-you-need-to-know/

Taken from a union website:

"It is important to note that the expectation that schools will have a school week of at least 32.5 hours is not a legal requirement.

Currently, there are no legal requirements on the length of the school day and the DfE has not indicated that it plans to
introduce any such requirements."

I know your argument with the school is around wraparound care. I must stress to you that there is actually no expectation on schools to provide any wraparound care beyond their chosen opening hours. Like the government, they are also allowed to go back on what they previously planned or promised.

You might find this interesting:
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/budget-2023-hunt-wants-all-primaries-to-provide-wraparound-childcare/

As you can see, the current argument is to get some sort of wraparound care sorted. You are about 500 steps ahead of the current government trying to fight for what you deem high quality wrap around care.

My main point is, you're on a forum for mums, expecting them to answer a question the government can't even answer. That is, what is child are and what is education.

You missed Science, technology, geography, history, RE, MFL and PSHE from your subject lists.

Issues from other posts include the two weeks of personal days for appointments or holidays. Say Jo has regular hospital appointments and misses 14 days spread out over the school year. This means missing a key skill/concept being introduced for each of the topics for each day. Even with some extra support from teaching staff, this makes it harder for Jo to grasp the topics. It also would be discriminatory for these to be Jo’s personal days as Jo has a disability that impacts attendance.

Then we have Darcy who goes on two one week holidays. Darcy misses a big chunk of learning during that time. How do you envisage those knowledge gaps being filled? Darcy struggles for the rest of these topics.

Riley takes two weeks off in a row. One week was the same as Darcy but Riley was off the week before too. Again knowledge gaps to fill. If teaching staff take the time to do this, it impacts the rest of the class who were there for those weeks.

Children struggle by the end of the school day. Teaching staff are already overstretched due to staff shortages. Suggesting they work more weeks and/or longer hours is going to increase this shortage.

Education should be about what is best for the children. Any changes should be about their improved educational outcomes. Not for the economy, for parents to work or to tackle any of the other issues. How does your plan improve things for them when it comes to their education? As a very experienced teacher, I don’t feel it does. Plus some of the things/experiences you are thinking should be included are things/experiences that parents should be providing their children.

@RedToothBrush What a trite response. My DC boarded. I’m no less a parent for that, thank you very much. Judgy or what!

Parents need to work. I’ve enough money to make choices but I’m very much aware that others struggle. We know parents find childcare difficult and expensive. It’s not unreasonable to look at solutions for them who are not prilieged enough to work short hours of have employers who are understanding. The self employed frequently work extra hard and long hours. To say people who work do not like their children is offensive.

The phrase is moot point, not mute. You really are a pillock.

Arguing with this man is like playing chess chess with a pigeon.
Never play chess with a pigeon.
The pigeon just knocks all the pieces over.
Then shits all over the board.
Then struts around like it won.

Can anyone actually clarify what he wants in terms of a pilot? All I got is the teachers working in shifts and extended days.