Primary education for the modern world

[ThinkingForward]

Discussion on how to reform the primary school offering to make it suitable for modern britain

> benefits of having more directed hours of experiences and learning
> more diverse educational offering
> societal benefits: broader opportunities for parents, families an the economy

I am a father of a 6 yr old dc, and both my wife and i work full time, she works for the NHS and i run my own business(es). We have elderly parents, who also require our input and limited family support (our son gets picked up by my mum 1 day a week and she has him for 2-3 hrs).

The need to better provisioning of early years childcare is often highlighted, however there is little public discussion about the effects of a Victorian timetable on modern society, especially at primary school level.

This touches nearly every aspect of society,
a) educational regression of pupils after long summer holidays
b) lack of holiday provision for students and family's that receive pupil premium (from school meals to welfare checks)
c) discriminatory effects on women's earning, career progression and pension provision. Furthermore the effect on families/ relationship stability as a consequential outcome.
i. on breakdown of relationships this can lead to loss of homes and employment, in some case lead to problems of homelessness and addiction for the parent without the children
ii compounds disadvantage, for children especially if extended family support isnt available.
d) environmental impact of a 5 day vs 4 day week for example (additional heating, travel etc), if the current level of funding was capped then a shorter week with longer days may provide additional opportunities for parents to gain good quality employment
i. economic impact of the mismatch between typical holiday allowance (4-6 weeks for full time adult) and 13 weeks school holiday.
f) impact from unauthorized absence due to rigid holiday patterns and consequential high prices of travel

Forster introduced the education act in 1870, even at this stage the need for continuous evolution was recognized in the introductory speech. The timetable is probably one of the only recognisable elements of the schools system from 150 years ago. So much of our society has changed and the persistence with this timetable reinforces discrimination and could be seen as a root of many negative outcomes especially for women. Impacting short and long term earnings as well as pensions in retirement, but this also changes the dynamics of the economy, family life and even the environment. The academic literature indicates that long holidays are not to the children's benefit, with the loss of skills over these longer breaks. The travel industry becries the seasonality of holiday, and justifies its crazy pricing as a result of this.. So who actually benefits from a 150 year old timetable?

Almost every section of society would benefit from reviewing the school timetable, it would be ideal if there was more funding for more provision, but there seems to be almost no loosers from having a more fit for purpose timetable. Different funding options for the short, medium and long term could be considered. For example use of the tax free childcare allowance. As schools provides good quality educational options and childcare at a lower cost than the private provision (typical outside funding rates are around £4.20/pupil per hour with most priviate provision being 25-50% more for "just childcare"). Furthermore the marginal cost for increasing this provision would be modest as there would be mainly variable (additional direct staff and minimal additional overhead).

Working patterns have been brought into sharp focus following C19 and the working from home revolution. There are plenty of opportunities to look at different school and working patterns, for example a 4 day school week with longer days. This might allow those that work around school drop off and pick up to improve their employment opportunities, cut there travel costs and the school to only heat the school 4 days a week . Similarly a 45-46 week schedule then most 2 parent families could manage childcare with their normal holiday although this would be a challenge, but would not create such dependence on family friends, private provision etc to be able to manage the holidays.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

@Sherrystrull Exactly. He keeps calling me names but is yet to confirm whether he's actually volunteered for a day in a school to see the logistics of his plan. It's insulting really.

I have seen quite a few very successful teaching job shares. Even a headship job share. The teachers liked sharing and the teachers who taught DD changed over on Wednesday lunchtime. Not every day. If you can afford it, job sharers are paid 11/10. So a bit more for handover. They get what they want and keep teaching. One teacher who taught dd this way is now a very successful head. So she wanted to job share. I’ve also been a governor where we’ve had job shares and kept great teachers by being flexible. Again, one is now a deputy. It’s the right solution for some people who love teaching and can organise childcare. It’s also helped older staff do a bit less. I’ve also seen a 4day/1 day share. 4 day was the deputy head. Also we had sets for maths in y6 and the class teachers plus another had 3 classes. Normally there were two classes: 60 Dc. You can do things to retain staff and that they want.

No, because
A) a school can't be open for an additional 3 hours per day for just 30 reception children.
B) I pointed out that I think it's a shit idea on the whole, that prioritizes your specific needs over a whole lot of of more important things, and is financially insane

I mentioned that specifically in the post ...

My job share is incredibly successful. However it's a huge amount of work to make it successful and smooth for the children. It takes lots and lots of good will and working for free. Something teachers are not strangers to giving.

@Foxesandsquirrels

im just following your lead, castigation seems to be the required etiquette

So yes i have volunteered, but in your eyes it probably wouldnt count. As it wasnt listening to children read, or on a school trip. Couple of activities which were prep of teaching tools, and other admin, which saved quite a bit of money in professional fees.

So basically no experience of the actual job.

You worked in an office not a classroom.

You interacted with paper not people.

Yep definitely doesn't count.

So no actual experience of the job? And you've taken it upon yourself to even price our your worth to the school? Gosh you really are important. Thank goodness we've got you to tell us all how things should be run! What would have we done without you. That headteacher and governors really are idiots for not listening to you!! Praise thee.

@Sherrystrull The teachers I know who were younger saw this arrangement as allowing their careers to grow and not stagnate. There was something in it for them. Yes the handover takes time and planning but the pluses outweigh the minuses for ambitious staff. Many many professional staff do hours way beyond their contracted hours. If there’s a good reason to do it, they do it!! Many job share teachers ask for a job share. I think team teaching is a good idea too. Certainly is good for y6.

The genius team that is running the show, has financially collapsed the ACA provision twice in a little over 2 years, and its trying for its third.

At no point did i say that i wanted to write the curriculum or that i had the expertise to do so, happy to let the experts get on with that.

Anyway as people have pointed out this is a rather large waste of time, theres alot of throwing shots over the wall. Little of it is adding value, thanks for the ideas for those that have taken the time to contribute.

Fail fast, learn faster.

It sounds like you're thinking of ways to manage your children around your work schedule. Kids probably need less time in school (which they could probably learn just as well if class sizes were smaller) and should be given more time outside of school to peruse hobbies and interests.

Your idea sounds better for you and worse for kids.

Are you a teacher?

Since when did I say anything about career stagnation? You're talking rubbish. My point was simply that having a job share takes way more work than a quick chat over lunchtime. Have you been a job share teacher? I've been a job share and a full time teacher for many years and both are incredibly challenging.

I don't know if your views are simplistic, outdated or if you're being wilfully ignorant.

1.You're forgetting all about science, geography/history, RE, PHSE.

1. Art, music , PE etc do happen in the afternoon.

1. Yes we do know about SEN and different approaches and teaching styles which is why various things are incorporated in the actual subjects like discussions and debates, role plays, practical activities and investigations, using manipulatives and visuals and so on.

I have noticed that at the heart of all your gripes about the school system (and there definitely real issues there) is the wish of for longer FREE childcare. Not affordable, not subsidised , FREE. School is not childcare.

@ThinkingForward
I actually have no words
So much of what you have said is ridiculous
I bet you're a right pain at your child's school
What you need to find is better childcare
My child's school has wonderful before and after school care
Where are facilities coming from for all these extra activities
I could go on but I won't waste my breath

At no point did i say that i wanted to write the curriculum or that i had the expertise to do so, happy to let the experts get on with that.

How very gracious.

I don't understand the arguments against a longer school day because hot tired children etc.

Having had both of mine at a state primary (9am til 3.30pm with 3 breaks) and at independent prep (8am till 5pm). the children were happiest at prep. The mindset at state primary from SLT was "oh they're so tired at 3.30/by Friday so the DC were as good as written off as frazzled regardless and parents pick up on that message and go with it but that doesn't make it true. At prep was more going on with more time for music and sports but the school day was much less rushed and the teachers were a lot less stressed too. My DC aren't energetic and in need of tiring out, one is autistic, they're the type more likely to be tired out easily and they just weren't at all.

Prep also slowly phased in Saturday school as DC get older starting with morning activities for the littlies rising to sport fixtures/music events etc and you know what, the DC all loved it.

All schools are different, and our state primary was the one who eg. told parents we'd have to teach times tables ourselves because there wasn't time in school yet managed to find time to stick a movie on every Friday (because the DC are 'tired') which all appeared after a change of HT, interestingly. But the idea of a longer day being better for working parents but damaging to DC is just plain wrong. A great many parents take their DC to after school or weekend activities like swimming or football and they can't be too tired to do it or you wouldn't be able to take them.

At prep was more going on with more time for music and sports but the school day was much less rushed and the teachers were a lot less stressed too. My DC aren't energetic and in need of tiring out, one is autistic, they're the type more likely to be tired out easily and they just weren't at all.

How many kids in the class? How much management of meltdowns which affect the concerntration of others is going on? Or is there sufficient staffing to prevent 'wasted energy' being burnt which has a ripple effect throughout the class?

DS can manage a certain amount but by 3pm he's definitely done with school. A different setting, difficult adults and children and a break means he's ok to do more a bit later with better adult to child ratios. But the same environment for too long and it's too much for anything.

Don't presume that because your child has special needs it's reflective of how this works for other SEN kids in a State school with loads more pressures and kids. It's just not the same.

@Jackiewoo I agree with you. My DDs prep offered tea and clubs after tea. Sometimes I collected her at 7 pm. Schools do see tired Dc but not everyone.

I get they far too many Dc are not ready for school post COVID but I’ve never seen schools as chaotic as described here. My DD1 went state to 11. I’ve been a LA officer visiting schools and a governor in several schools. I don’t recognise these awful schools. I think the op just needs to work longer hours to pay fees!!

I've never worked in a private school but the government stipulates such a full curriculum that days in state schools are intense and feel rushed. We would love a calmer day but it is impossible to fit the curriculum in.

Many children can cope with after school activities after a break and in a much smaller group of people but are exhausted from the hubbub and concentration required to follow school instructions.

Some issues that always crop up when schools run BC or ASC.

The free one hour ones , run by teachers and TA's without pay. They're too short, some parents are always late(because they're free, the teacher is there anyways and there's no significant backlash)issues with managing medical conditions/ other SEN needs , complaints about lack of diversity, why is there not a space in the middle of the term, why isn't my child in ALL the clubs etc.

The paid ones but run by the school. Once again they are too short on both ends. School has one that starts at 8, parents moan, they drop it to 7:30, and slightly increase the cost(like an extra £2) then parents moan it's too expensive and more parents moan they need a 7 o'clock one. Same for the afternoons. Complaints about the cost , I've seen even when it's around the £10 mark or even less until 6 pm. Even OP's real issue is that there's no free offer. Then complaints about the food /snacks, it has sugar, it's repetitive, it's not a hot meal, it's not healthy enough and so on. And ofc parents still pushing it and dropping off or picking up 5 minutes early /late. The activities are boring, they're not catering for x,y,z and so on. It's not really that surprising when schools just leave it to independent contractors. Ironically, they're still expected to deal with issues even when it has nothing to do with them. They just provide the premisses or a pick up point.

Yep-private schools who have fewer children in the class, more staff, larger grounds and fewer pupils with high needs than state schools, often cope better.

@Jackiewoo
This is pretty much the experience re movie and HT that we have.

The BSC is ok, there isnt so much time in the mornings, with breakfast etc it would be nice if it started earlier then some activity could be fitted in, but its disruptive to do that as drop off varies in time, so any activity (s) would need to accommodate this. The ASC is like crowd control with no direction or directed activities. Its such a waste of time, I would really love him to have someone to teach him to draw, a language, music etc. The club was £5/hr now £6/hr which is also ok, its just poor value, considering the school is funded at ~£4.20/hr and does a better job. I asked if this could be increased and and get better quality but seems not. The same is true for the holidays, the clubs is £25/day and it has no real structure. Im trying to get him into one of another 3 places with other providers (for the last 2 months) £45-56/day but they are oversubscribed...(surely this should be a clue to the school?)

When he doesnt go to ASC 2 days a week then he is often wants to do more.

I was thinking state till 11. Seems we might need a new plan.

@Jwhb think we covered the funding, the trial has a funding rate of £4.50/hr/ child for 2000 hrs of provision + fixed overhead premium for partial opening a year with a smaller group.

The BSC is ok, there isnt so much time in the mornings, with breakfast etc it would be nice if it started earlier then some activity could be fitted in, but its disruptive to do that as drop off varies in time, so any activity (s) would need to accommodate this. The ASC is like crowd control with no direction or directed activities. Its such a waste of time, I would really love him to have someone to teach him to draw, a language, music etc. The club was £5/hr now £6/hr which is also ok, its just poor value,

Just as I was saying. Funny that.