Primary education for the modern world

[ThinkingForward]

Discussion on how to reform the primary school offering to make it suitable for modern britain

> benefits of having more directed hours of experiences and learning
> more diverse educational offering
> societal benefits: broader opportunities for parents, families an the economy

I am a father of a 6 yr old dc, and both my wife and i work full time, she works for the NHS and i run my own business(es). We have elderly parents, who also require our input and limited family support (our son gets picked up by my mum 1 day a week and she has him for 2-3 hrs).

The need to better provisioning of early years childcare is often highlighted, however there is little public discussion about the effects of a Victorian timetable on modern society, especially at primary school level.

This touches nearly every aspect of society,
a) educational regression of pupils after long summer holidays
b) lack of holiday provision for students and family's that receive pupil premium (from school meals to welfare checks)
c) discriminatory effects on women's earning, career progression and pension provision. Furthermore the effect on families/ relationship stability as a consequential outcome.
i. on breakdown of relationships this can lead to loss of homes and employment, in some case lead to problems of homelessness and addiction for the parent without the children
ii compounds disadvantage, for children especially if extended family support isnt available.
d) environmental impact of a 5 day vs 4 day week for example (additional heating, travel etc), if the current level of funding was capped then a shorter week with longer days may provide additional opportunities for parents to gain good quality employment
i. economic impact of the mismatch between typical holiday allowance (4-6 weeks for full time adult) and 13 weeks school holiday.
f) impact from unauthorized absence due to rigid holiday patterns and consequential high prices of travel

Forster introduced the education act in 1870, even at this stage the need for continuous evolution was recognized in the introductory speech. The timetable is probably one of the only recognisable elements of the schools system from 150 years ago. So much of our society has changed and the persistence with this timetable reinforces discrimination and could be seen as a root of many negative outcomes especially for women. Impacting short and long term earnings as well as pensions in retirement, but this also changes the dynamics of the economy, family life and even the environment. The academic literature indicates that long holidays are not to the children's benefit, with the loss of skills over these longer breaks. The travel industry becries the seasonality of holiday, and justifies its crazy pricing as a result of this.. So who actually benefits from a 150 year old timetable?

Almost every section of society would benefit from reviewing the school timetable, it would be ideal if there was more funding for more provision, but there seems to be almost no loosers from having a more fit for purpose timetable. Different funding options for the short, medium and long term could be considered. For example use of the tax free childcare allowance. As schools provides good quality educational options and childcare at a lower cost than the private provision (typical outside funding rates are around £4.20/pupil per hour with most priviate provision being 25-50% more for "just childcare"). Furthermore the marginal cost for increasing this provision would be modest as there would be mainly variable (additional direct staff and minimal additional overhead).

Working patterns have been brought into sharp focus following C19 and the working from home revolution. There are plenty of opportunities to look at different school and working patterns, for example a 4 day school week with longer days. This might allow those that work around school drop off and pick up to improve their employment opportunities, cut there travel costs and the school to only heat the school 4 days a week . Similarly a 45-46 week schedule then most 2 parent families could manage childcare with their normal holiday although this would be a challenge, but would not create such dependence on family friends, private provision etc to be able to manage the holidays.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

Many would argue there is none.
I hated setting it when I was in primary. There is no evidence it benefits anyone.
I used to tell parents 'talk to your children and read to them every day. Give them interesting experiences. That is all the homework they need'

It is different at secondary, but we're not talking about that here

@ThinkingForward Tbh you really don't sound like a bad dad and I think you're just very angry at what's in place for your kid. I just wish you respected a school when they say no. They're allowed to do that and they don't have to explain why. I hope this thread has opened your eyes to the many, many variables at play you may not be privy to.

I did use the example of how DS does better at home with parental support and the lack of distractions after 3.30pm upthread.

It's a different environment. Again can't be compared to being in school.

Many teachers don't agree with homework. Yet another government stipulation blamed on schools.

Many primary schools don't give it and get complaints.

Exactly. Can't win either way.

I'm pretty sure every school system in the world has five day weeks, and long summer holidays.

I agree, beyond reading and practising times tables, (which can be done in 5-10 min slots) I don't think primary children need homework or benefit that much from it.
With some of the students I taught I would suggest to parents that they try and carve out time first thing even for these as the child would learn much better than after school.

That’s because teachers the world over are stuck in their ways, refusing even to consider completely overhauling their school day to fit in with the work patterns of one of their pupils’ dads

Some of them have much longer holidays. Where I'm from we break off on 15th of June and go back 15th of September. Great for holidays too as the season ends 31st of August so families can get much cheaper holidays in the 2 weeks left. It does make me laugh when Brits moan how impossibly long the summer hols are .

@Foxesandsquirrels
half a compliment im in shock.. thank you.

It is still a mystery how a music/ art/ sports/ dance lesson after school is defined as childcare by some contributors?

@Saschka
ha ha. please read CIPD's (HR professional body) report on productivity and workforce preferences on flexitime..... 9 day fortnight stands out lets say. . There is additionally a dfe report on managing heating costs as a result of Ukraine war on schools. Then there is a climate change report on government buildings and there carbon footprint, commuting etc etc.

I Look forward to your EVIDENCE to the contrary

Why are clubs not childcare as such? You are not looking after Dc. Someone else is!

You aren’t interested in anyone’s opinion on anything. You’ve listened to nothing that anyone has said on this thread. Many people in the profession that you are talking about have told you why this would be impractical but you refuse to listen.

You want my evidence that there are only 8 children in my son’s afterschool football club?

Plenty of people on this thread, who are not teachers, have told you they would not want this. No private schools offer 4 day weeks, which should give you some indication that there is no demand. And none of the pre-preps I am aware of have ten hour days for 6 year olds (actually the two closest to me, JAGS and Alleyns, run from 8:30-3:30 until year 3. Feel free to take a look at their websites if you don’t believe me).

Find me a pre-prep that runs from 7:30-6pm Mon-Thurs. You can’t.

@TizerorFizz

they well may be childcare but there is a great insistence that school isnt childcare, but if childcare has lessons and learning then is that not education?

Or is the separation that education is by a teacher who covers combined english and maths. This doesn't make sense either as i was then berated for not mentioning science in some kind of work share arrangement, in a subsequent post.

We then have the view that if its on the national curriculum then its education, with the same group saying the curriculum is so packed its difficult to teach. While simultaneously saying that any afterschool club couldnt possibly be anything other than childcare and not wanting to expand the timetable further.

I have over 15 posts saying that i should get on and arrange childcare, and thats not the schools job. However amongst all these teachers who talk down to me they is yet to be a definition of where the one starts and the other stops.

When i have mentioned the teaching through play and breaking up activities again there has been substantial beration, accusations of mansplaining.

I suppose i could dig through the 200+ posts and find all the quotes but hopefully thats not necessary.

Time is the most precious commodity that any of us have, I really want him to make the best use of his, so "crowd control childcare" is not on my agenda for him.

However interested in "team teacher" to craft some definitions for me to learn and have a nice infinite line between education and childcare.

Your problem is that you want a bespoke ‘gold standard’ service from an education system that is on the bones of its arse. In order to provide what you want you would need to fundamentally change teacher contracts and pay us a hell of a lot more money. We are quite literally drowning in work and pressure and working far beyond our contracted hours just to keep everything going. Do you honestly think that we would allow contact time to expand from 39 to 46 weeks or that we would be willing to accept split shifts? And where are all these art teachers and music teachers and coaches supposed to come from? Experienced teachers are already leaving in droves. If you want more input into school strategic decision making you should become a school governor. Maybe then you would gain more of an insight into how schools work and the difficulties we face.

No one is talking down to you. We're just not indulging your whims and are calling you out on your inaccurate information.

You clearly have a very fragile ego and don't like assertive women.

Time is the most precious commodity that any of us have, I really want him to make the best use of his, so "crowd control childcare" is not on my agenda for him.

Funny how you don't want to spend as much time as possible with him.

@JimmyGrimble

Chipping in on stuff which has been comprehensively covered doesnt change very much. All this has been covered, points made on implementation are somewhat a mute point at the moment, the point was to evidence through a pilot. Once there is a decision to implement then the fastest this could be universally achieved would be a couple of years of that decision, this would allow for the recruitment, and training etc current training target is ~32k/ year, this is short but recovering (covid). Interms of the switch then there are lots of options for the implementation to get a new contract through. If you start with the new staff then this would be to switch the ITT bursary to be based on a commitment to a 45 week contract for example. You could also attract more experienced teacher onto the longer contract by making there student loan convertible to a preferential scheme. Im sure i could devise a few other (dastardly) schemes but there is many in government who are better placed to do so.

On the school governor front then cadre at the core and they only recuit nodding dogs to rubber stamp proposals. The turnover is really high because of this. My nodding dog act is rather poor as you can imagine.

@Sherrystrull im still trying to work out how direct i can be on here. Fragile ego... thats a sword of Damocles if i respond, i "prove" im fragile if i dont its like accepting that i am. Nice play!

@AngryGreasedSantaCatcus

Thats pretty much a non point unless you live in inter generational commune/cult and work with your family every minute of every day. If you can manage that without having a breakdown then all power to you.

You don’t half talk fancy shit for someone who doesn’t know the difference between there, their and they’re. Also, it’s moot point.

Comprehensively covered? You’ve answered zero questions and proposed absolutely nothing that could conceivable work in the real world of education. And good luck with enticing me with lower student loan payments. That sucker was paid off twenty years ago. As I said, experienced. You’re barking.

And parent governors are elected not appointed so crack on.

This reply just shows how disjointed your thinking is. You want your child in childcare (sorry,school)from 7:30 until what 5/6 in the evening? You only spend 2/3 hours (4 if I'm being generous) with him during the week, it would be even less on your ideal schedule, but that's ok because he's learning dancing, art and cooking.