Primary education for the modern world

[ThinkingForward]

Discussion on how to reform the primary school offering to make it suitable for modern britain

> benefits of having more directed hours of experiences and learning
> more diverse educational offering
> societal benefits: broader opportunities for parents, families an the economy

I am a father of a 6 yr old dc, and both my wife and i work full time, she works for the NHS and i run my own business(es). We have elderly parents, who also require our input and limited family support (our son gets picked up by my mum 1 day a week and she has him for 2-3 hrs).

The need to better provisioning of early years childcare is often highlighted, however there is little public discussion about the effects of a Victorian timetable on modern society, especially at primary school level.

This touches nearly every aspect of society,
a) educational regression of pupils after long summer holidays
b) lack of holiday provision for students and family's that receive pupil premium (from school meals to welfare checks)
c) discriminatory effects on women's earning, career progression and pension provision. Furthermore the effect on families/ relationship stability as a consequential outcome.
i. on breakdown of relationships this can lead to loss of homes and employment, in some case lead to problems of homelessness and addiction for the parent without the children
ii compounds disadvantage, for children especially if extended family support isnt available.
d) environmental impact of a 5 day vs 4 day week for example (additional heating, travel etc), if the current level of funding was capped then a shorter week with longer days may provide additional opportunities for parents to gain good quality employment
i. economic impact of the mismatch between typical holiday allowance (4-6 weeks for full time adult) and 13 weeks school holiday.
f) impact from unauthorized absence due to rigid holiday patterns and consequential high prices of travel

Forster introduced the education act in 1870, even at this stage the need for continuous evolution was recognized in the introductory speech. The timetable is probably one of the only recognisable elements of the schools system from 150 years ago. So much of our society has changed and the persistence with this timetable reinforces discrimination and could be seen as a root of many negative outcomes especially for women. Impacting short and long term earnings as well as pensions in retirement, but this also changes the dynamics of the economy, family life and even the environment. The academic literature indicates that long holidays are not to the children's benefit, with the loss of skills over these longer breaks. The travel industry becries the seasonality of holiday, and justifies its crazy pricing as a result of this.. So who actually benefits from a 150 year old timetable?

Almost every section of society would benefit from reviewing the school timetable, it would be ideal if there was more funding for more provision, but there seems to be almost no loosers from having a more fit for purpose timetable. Different funding options for the short, medium and long term could be considered. For example use of the tax free childcare allowance. As schools provides good quality educational options and childcare at a lower cost than the private provision (typical outside funding rates are around £4.20/pupil per hour with most priviate provision being 25-50% more for "just childcare"). Furthermore the marginal cost for increasing this provision would be modest as there would be mainly variable (additional direct staff and minimal additional overhead).

Working patterns have been brought into sharp focus following C19 and the working from home revolution. There are plenty of opportunities to look at different school and working patterns, for example a 4 day school week with longer days. This might allow those that work around school drop off and pick up to improve their employment opportunities, cut there travel costs and the school to only heat the school 4 days a week . Similarly a 45-46 week schedule then most 2 parent families could manage childcare with their normal holiday although this would be a challenge, but would not create such dependence on family friends, private provision etc to be able to manage the holidays.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

There is a private school near where I live that offers 4 long days 8-5 and I think no school on Fridays, which makes a lot of sense. Although my kids would probably find the day quite long.

Most people work a five day week. How would having to find childcare for one extra day a week help?

4 long day obviously means missing the 5th morning and the mornings are optimal learning time. Feels a bit robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Are you envisioning schools opening for more weeks of the year as them providing childcare for the extra weeks or continuing with curriculum for the extra weeks. The later would be expensive - teachers do not get paid for the holidays so extra weeks would require more money.

Are you saying that children should be at school for longer hours but less days? Are you asking for childcare or school over the holidays?

While in theory I agree reform would be useful, I do not think longer school days is the answer. It would just be too tiring for the pupils and the teachers.

I would support having just a month in the summer, and making the Easter holiday or third term halfterm longer instead. But only as long as there is adequate, affordable, holiday camp provision. There are lots of camps out there which are eyewateringly expensive.

Bloody hell...just you try teaching a hot, overtired six year old beyond 3 o'clock in May/June/July and see how productive that would be...I challenge you!! I'm currently getting nothing out of mine, and I'm a very experienced KS1 teacher with almost 30 years under my belt! I can tell you now...your idea won't work in primary settings!

Actually what you are asking for (wanting!!!) is childcare...so just go and sort it out!! Teachers are there to teach the curriculum not provide your bloody childcare!!

You want cheap childcare after school and through the holidays because you work. Cheap childcare is what you need to be writing to your MP about.

Every school I have worked in needs the school absent of children over the holidays so they can do maintenance/repairs-many schools are falling down!

4 long days (and what would happen in the 5th, as you’re still talking about childcare, so I presume it would still be a 5th long day somewhere!) is what you as a working parent want. It’s certainly not good for the child. What if you want childcare across the summer but half the class don’t-you can’t change the school timetable based on the childcare wants of some parents. I’m

This sort of stuff has been argued on here for years. Some people want childcare in the summer so they can work. Some people want more weeks off at Easter so they can ski, some people want more weeks off at half term as it’s warmer. Nobody ever agrees on a single change so it stays the same.

If you want childcare though-campaign for that-it’s not for schools to provide-they are on their knees with no budget, crumbling building and staff fleeing.

This is such an interesting discussion. I don't have time right now to post a mega long and well thought response but I will later.

There's a man called Sugata Mistra (sp?) doing some really interesting work around the premise that today's education system is still based around what was needed to be successful in Victorian times and the people who will be successful now aren't necessarily the people who have need handwriting, memorise their times tables and can read at length. He's come up with a whole method of learning based on what he feels people today need. It's actually fab but whenever I see schools try to use it they inevitably end up moving back to the more traditional methods of work. Education, especially primary ed, needs a huge reform imo.

I don’t see how 4 long days of childcare would help. Employers being more flexible would be better.

I was coming on to say something similar but SpringintoChaos has covered it nicely! It's not just during the hot summer either really.
I dare you to volunteer to go into your child's school and teach some new maths concepts for the last hour on a Friday afternoon. Even the most able child struggles to learn much at that time!

All your changes seem to be about supporting parents in their working lives, rather than about what's best for children's learning.

This.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

My problem would be that little children get very tired and by 3pm have definitely had enough. I don’t want mine to be in school for long days, and would want to collect them at 3/3.30. I want them to have breakfast at home and then coming home whilst it’s still light. Under your scheme-you clearly want children doing long days and 46 week years. I don’t, so would want to bring mine to school eg 8.45-3.15. You want wraparound childcare and I don’t so either you need to find childcare or your work needs to be more flexible-I don’t want mine in more compulsory schooling to meet your childcare needs. Schools aren’t childcare.

Schools and formal employment have developed concurrently so while schools are Victorian in structure so too is the world of work. It’s a bit of a red herring to say that it’s a Victorian timetable therefore it’s not fit for purpose. Pre Industrial Revolution very few people worked in an employed job with set hours, and very few children received any formal education.

I think a huge overhaul of work and education is highly unlikely to happen. It hasn’t happened in any other country worldwide. Everywhere from Denmark to China has stuck to the concept of basically 9-3 Mon- Fri school day with regular long holidays.

So many children do very long hours in countries like Japan and Singapore. Not many would want that here. My DC didn’t get very tired and always had a myriad of after school activities. Never had any academic coaching or tutoring. They did things they chose to do like dance, swimming and brownies. My DH was self employed. He worked 5 days a week. His company do flexible working now but o think Dc need routine and that’s provided by school. The summer holiday, allied to the harvest season, is outdated. However we know changed holiday dates will just be followed by higher prices. It’s supply and demand.

Lastly, what school wants more change? None I think.

My personal feeling is that society isn't best set up at the moment to be what's best for families. Specifically what works best for children.

• adults getting less holidays that schools have.
• relatively few fathers have if access to a decent amount of paid shared parental leave.
• working day lasting longer than the school day etc etc.
• the high cost of childcare almost nullifying one parent's wage.

Obviously we're no where near as bad as the US but equally we're no where near as good as Sweden so we still have a long way to go.

I personally think altering school hours to further suit working patterns enforced on adults is a terrible idea but certainly more likely to happen than the societal change that I believe is necessary for families.

I 100% believe curriculum reform is necessary. I can't speak for secondary but the current primary curriculum is not fit for purpose, has no relevance to working life in this age and has no understanding of the pedagogy of teaching primary age children. It's accompanied by an obsession with the so called 'Shanghai' methods of teaching - basically modelling methods taught in Chinese schools with no acknowledgement of the huge cultural differences not least the absolute lack of Sen in Chinese mainstream schools and the timetabling differences that allow maths teachers there to teach plan then teach again two maths sessions a day.

Actually I take that final bit back as I'm not sure if it's just my local authority that is obsessed with copying these methods or if it is a national issue.

Incidentally I was part of a team that was sent to Beijing to see the methods used first hand and the teachers were incredibly impressive- this is certainly not a criticism of them. I just think it's remiss not to recognise the huge cultural differences that would make it nigh on impossible to replicate in the U.K. I was literally told by one teacher there that they aren't expected to act as behaviour support, social worker, counsellor etc, they just teach.

Primary education here is far more child centric than in many other countries. I don’t think we should be too critical. Germany and France have a very regimented system with lots of rules and humiliating treatment of children who break them.

China and other Asian countries put huge pressure on children to succeed in academic subjects to the exclusion of almost everything else. Middle class children in China are now being taught English from birth and reading English language phonics books in school at the same rate as British children get through them. The expectations on children are incredibly high.

Primary education is nothing like what it was in the Victorian times. There are tons of things for kids on pupil premium where I am, the huge gap is for those that aren't, but also aren't loaded. There's no support for families not on benefits. There is an assumption they're fine and have money. A lot are struggling.

It seems your main problem is childcare and all around family life. The UK is not child centred in the slightest, and that's very visible once you step foot into mainland Europe where they have very affordable childcare and are actually trying to help parents. A lot of their primary education is 4hrs a day, with wrap around supervised free play on either end of that.

I agree. I think the UK education system is actually very very good. And I include England, Wales, Scotland and NI in that. The trouble is, there's not enough money to achieve what's in the curriculum in a holistic way, and outside of school there is little to no support for working parents.

The school holidays being aligned with harvest is a popular fallacy

https://www.oxford-royale.com/articles/a-brief-history-summer-holiday/

@Shinyandnew1 It absolutely is not in rural areas.

My grandfather left school at 9. 19th century. He went to help his father in the fields. He spent way more then 6 weeks doing that work anyway. He did not go to school in terms. He went when he was allowed to go. That was the same for millions in Victorian times. Poorer parents did not support education and their Dc didn’t adhere to going to school. Families needed money and had lots of Dc. They went back after the harvest. Terms were introduced to try and regularise attendance. Plus we needed a better educated workforce. My great grandfather could barely write!

My mother went to a grammar school. After school she went stone picking snd early in the morning delivered milk. The idea that people followed neat patterns of education is utterly ludicrous. Many Dc passed to go to grammars but parents never sent them there. Education has not been universally valued here. And frankly that article is uninformed rubbish! Yes, the harvest went on longer and Dc stayed off school longer!!!

Term dates for schools were build around paid-schools and wealthier families whose children wouldn’t have been helping in the fields. ‘Free’ schools simply fitted in with them and followed their lead.