Primary education for the modern world

[ThinkingForward]

Discussion on how to reform the primary school offering to make it suitable for modern britain

> benefits of having more directed hours of experiences and learning
> more diverse educational offering
> societal benefits: broader opportunities for parents, families an the economy

I am a father of a 6 yr old dc, and both my wife and i work full time, she works for the NHS and i run my own business(es). We have elderly parents, who also require our input and limited family support (our son gets picked up by my mum 1 day a week and she has him for 2-3 hrs).

The need to better provisioning of early years childcare is often highlighted, however there is little public discussion about the effects of a Victorian timetable on modern society, especially at primary school level.

This touches nearly every aspect of society,
a) educational regression of pupils after long summer holidays
b) lack of holiday provision for students and family's that receive pupil premium (from school meals to welfare checks)
c) discriminatory effects on women's earning, career progression and pension provision. Furthermore the effect on families/ relationship stability as a consequential outcome.
i. on breakdown of relationships this can lead to loss of homes and employment, in some case lead to problems of homelessness and addiction for the parent without the children
ii compounds disadvantage, for children especially if extended family support isnt available.
d) environmental impact of a 5 day vs 4 day week for example (additional heating, travel etc), if the current level of funding was capped then a shorter week with longer days may provide additional opportunities for parents to gain good quality employment
i. economic impact of the mismatch between typical holiday allowance (4-6 weeks for full time adult) and 13 weeks school holiday.
f) impact from unauthorized absence due to rigid holiday patterns and consequential high prices of travel

Forster introduced the education act in 1870, even at this stage the need for continuous evolution was recognized in the introductory speech. The timetable is probably one of the only recognisable elements of the schools system from 150 years ago. So much of our society has changed and the persistence with this timetable reinforces discrimination and could be seen as a root of many negative outcomes especially for women. Impacting short and long term earnings as well as pensions in retirement, but this also changes the dynamics of the economy, family life and even the environment. The academic literature indicates that long holidays are not to the children's benefit, with the loss of skills over these longer breaks. The travel industry becries the seasonality of holiday, and justifies its crazy pricing as a result of this.. So who actually benefits from a 150 year old timetable?

Almost every section of society would benefit from reviewing the school timetable, it would be ideal if there was more funding for more provision, but there seems to be almost no loosers from having a more fit for purpose timetable. Different funding options for the short, medium and long term could be considered. For example use of the tax free childcare allowance. As schools provides good quality educational options and childcare at a lower cost than the private provision (typical outside funding rates are around £4.20/pupil per hour with most priviate provision being 25-50% more for "just childcare"). Furthermore the marginal cost for increasing this provision would be modest as there would be mainly variable (additional direct staff and minimal additional overhead).

Working patterns have been brought into sharp focus following C19 and the working from home revolution. There are plenty of opportunities to look at different school and working patterns, for example a 4 day school week with longer days. This might allow those that work around school drop off and pick up to improve their employment opportunities, cut there travel costs and the school to only heat the school 4 days a week . Similarly a 45-46 week schedule then most 2 parent families could manage childcare with their normal holiday although this would be a challenge, but would not create such dependence on family friends, private provision etc to be able to manage the holidays.

So what problems do people see with changing the current victorian timetable to one which fits with modern life.?

@ThinkingForward 🤣 ffs! No problem AT ALL with a play based curriculum! I doubt a primary teacher on the planet would argue with this (but thanks for the mansplaining...would NEVER have thought about such a great idea all by my little lady self 🤦‍♀️) However, the government stipulate what we teach and there's nothing we can do about that, despite YEARS of lobbying from us as teachers, YEARS of research by groups such as the EEF and parent led groups such as More Than A Score (join one of you're that bothered!). Our hands a shackled!

But again...back to your OP...what you're asking for is wrap around care, longer days, extended weeks (almost a full year!) of teaching, so that YOU (and your wife) can work. What you don't seem to have considered is that the very people doing the childcare (er...sorry...'educating') for you, will very likely be parents themselves and may not want to be spending so much time away from true own families! Unlike you...who appears to find theirs such a chore I don't understand this, I really don't!

If your children are stopping you from achieving Greater Things on the corporate ladder...why did you have them? School IS NOT the place for childcare...as has been pointed out many times over!!! You are being a patronising, mansplaining bore now. Book childcare and pay for it, like everyone else. Or hire a nanny!

You're forgetting two "small" things.

1. With a longer school day what time do you actually expect school staff to actually make it home? What about all the stuff that happens after school? Child protection meetings, staff meetings, CPD, marking, displays, lesson prep, reports , progress meetings , filling in forms for SEN assessments, academic assessments, data and all the other things that crop up and need doing?

2.You're making two very big assumptions on the subject of funding. First, that the people in unemployment are so because of children/childcare issues and if this was sorted they would be back at work.It might be a reasonable assumption, but still an assumption. Your second, that the government would actually reinvest any extra money in schools and actually fund them properly, is another assumption. This is an unreasonable and unrealistic one as it's been very obvious for years that education and children are not a priority.

Adding to the discussion about Europe: We have family in Germany. The schools run something like 8-1 and there seems to be an expectation that grandparents support in the afternoon. Our family chose a private school for longer days, although the private school is a fraction of the cost compared to here. They also received grades from the first year (year 2 age in England as they start at 6) so there was a lot of focus on getting As and Bs (this may be school dependent). The later start (age 6) is less good for some disadvantaged families who don't send their child anywhere before 6.

Your first point could be 'solved' by having more teachers e.g. sports coaches, specialists to teach languages etc. Of course that would have a far bigger impact on your second point, which I agree with. We aren't sufficiently funding the current model!

Please tell me you aren't making a nuisance of yourself telling a poor overworked and stressed Head Teacher how to do their job, OP.

Tell me that wasn't as bad as it sounded.

they dont need to be stuck in a stuffy classroom

My school comprises a classroom for each class, a small hall (which is used for phonics, PE, assembly, music, lunchtimes, breakfast club and 1 after school club a day till 4.15) and a small playground.

Where would you like the children to be, when they aren’t in their stuffy classroom?

If everyone wanting a flexible working pattern left their job and became self employed, we would have no teachers, NHS and loads of other services would crumple.

Far more sensible to look at employer flexibility, than constant childcare for all. That isn’t what’s best for our children.

Absolutely this.
I am 50. Have three kids. Work in an inner city primary school.

The current system is not fit for purpose and crumbling. Physically and metaphorically.

I would be happy to lose the 6 week summer holiday: but I am paid for 39 weeks, divided up and paid over the year. We have no money - for repairs, TAs, specialists, glue sticks!- so how is my school going to pay me and my TA for the extra 7 weeks?

As others have pointed out: the line between education and childcare gets blurred. I taught in Japan for 2 years. The junior high school day was longer - but ‘school’ stopped at 3.30. The 2 hours after that was sports/ music/ ‘clubs’. Lots of children went to after school ‘crammers’ like Kumon too- but this was outside school.

The 6 and 7 year olds are done by 2 at the moment. They are hot and tired. And for the quieter, more introverted children (like 2/3 of my own), they have had enough of being with a large group of children.

From some of the suggestions you can tell who really works with current post covid children: I can’t do half the activities I would like to do with them because of behaviour, and not being able to share/ listen/ take turns/ not hurt each other. We need to acknowledge this, and work on developing this crucial tools - if you cannot get on with your peers, and regulate your emotions, how are they going to function in society/ the workplace?

We need smaller classes, more adults, so higher quality ‘learning through doing’ can happen. We should reassess a curriculum that insists I teach 6 year olds touch typing… whilst they can’t share, take turns, resolve conflict without violence, eat with a knife and fork, use scissors. I would rather start with some of those skills. Perhaps that is my inner Victorian showing?

But all this costs.

Meanwhile, everyone is exhausted and burnt out, support staff as well as teaching staff, trying to fix society with dwindling resources. And reading ‘oh why don’t schools teach manners/ behaviour/ banking/ budgeting/ swimming/ cooking/ IT….’ Really? In 6 hours?

<sighs>

Sitting in a class room is an artificial way of learning (its has its place), but offering maths through music, or english through drama, science through cooking or gardening. Adds context to what we are learning, this in general makes it easier to remember.

I don’t think any teacher would argue that adding context to learning helps-we do know what we are doing. In the government model of funding, which is getting the cheapest adult they can get in the classroom alongside the largest number of children they can squeeze in there with them, the above won’t be happening.

Until we get a government willing to invest in education, this is a moot point. They are willing to invite at about £3.75 an hour in childcare, but that is inadequate and is the reason why nurseries/childminders across the country are closing in droves. We can’t get anyone to staff our breakfast club as nobody wants to work 7.40-8.45, so your plan of this being an amazing solution to get the unemployment back to work may not pan out.

My main issue is i want to have a better offering for my son, but his school even when given direction and i find them the resources (£500k/yr for 5 years of government funding for running a trial) then they cant get themselves organised.

This is genuinely frightening. If you want to run a trial of your ideas, you need to set up a free school and do it yourself. Or find a visionary Head Teacher with the will and the energy to do this sort of thing.

Insisting that this Head Teacher 'organises themself' because YOU have decided that you want to push your ideas (untested and not based on any particular pedagogy beyond 'children learn best through play') for your own child is so beyond entitled that I can't even begin.

They must hide from you when you loom into view.

If they turned their school upside down to accommodate you and Ofsted came calling, hated it and put them into special measures, the Head loses everything. You...nothing at all.

Quite honestly I read the OP and thought what a load of bull crap.

I would settle for much more SEN provision to deal with the appalling behavioural issues in the classroom which are massively effecting teacher and TA retention rather than thinking 'hey let's put a pile more crap of pressure on teachers to change the curriculum and to change their working hours so I'm happy as a parent and it suits MY lifestyle'.

And funding schools probably so that issues over poverty are better addressed - this includes things like better funding of uniform and school meals (including out of term).

Oh and actually funding building repairs properly so school budget goes on actual education.

Not wholesale change.

The OP complains about childcare and lack of working opportunities on the one hand, then on the other proposes a longer school day over just four days.

That's a) insane b) all about the OPs lifestyle and fuck all to do with being better for kids or other parents.

Primary age kids would massively lose out with longer school days. Many simply can't cope with the information input. After school child care is a completely different environment to actually trying to learn stuff on the curriculum. Longer days would also kill many after school activities which are massively beneficial to kids in a different way to school - kids who do not thrive at school may blossom at things like dance or scouts or various sports. Having an extra weekend day would not be a suitable substitute - you can't cram them all into one day.

As for shortening the school holidays. The kids need a break. Yeah they might regress a bit but honestly they need long term retention anyway so if they've forgotten over six weeks they've not learnt it sufficiently in the first place. The revision is essential regardless. Many kids do weeks long summer activities which are fun too. The poorest kids miss out on this, but removing the ability for others to do seems like a race to the bottom.

This thread is about the OP not liking child care options. It isn't really about school at all. And I really object to that.

And it's s tone deaf to what the ACTUAL problems schools face. But cos it's got fancy words and attempts to look clever by referencing how Victorian schools are the OP tries to win the argument. It's an executive word salad argument.

It's boiled my piss tbh.

Stick to the basics first rather than putting the nails in the coffin of primary education.

I don't actually disagree that the summer holidays are too long. I think they are. Children need breaks, but I think two week half terms would be better to spread the breaks out into longer, more regular chunks. Maybe children and school staff wouldn't be on their knees at the end of every year that way.

I also think that extended school days with sports coaches, music teachers, forest school practitioners and cookery teachers is a really good idea. I think it ought to be optional, but it would solve a number of problems. Not least, exposing less advantaged children to experiences taken for granted by some. (The opportunity to learn an instrument or learn a new sport). Parents who want their children home at 3.15, should be allowed to do that, though.

Good luck trying to get any funding for this when we don't have enough to do less than the bare minimum at the moment, though.

You would need a very brave Government to do what you're suggesting and we don't have one of those. Not even in waiting.

I don't know where you are but swimming is half that where I am. And climbing £8. And then there's the very minimal cost of scouting due to volunteers....

You know why:
These are lower cost to run and organise as there is limited equipment and staffing required.

Yeah cos many of these activities are helped and supported by volunteers rather than being run purely commercially.

And the venues??? So you try and put them into alternative venues on the one extra day (when the people who run them are at their full time job not their side hobby/job).

All these extra activities you want teachers to do? How are these going to work? You can't do them in the classroom? Right ok, so where are you doing them and how are you getting the kids there? How do you manage the additional adult to child ratio you need to take a class off premises? Or the hire of alternative premises? Or the transportation. Where are you going to get all the minimum wage staff to do all the fun activities - keeping in mind the number of people who do them have an actual daytime job which pays the bills?

Hey let's cook a three course meal at school. In what fucking facilities? Yeah cracking, let's do cooking with a bunch of 30 yr3 kids who are kicking off because little Johnny over there has ADHD and Autism and just can't cope and doesn't have adequate SEN support and instead disrupts the class continually and the rest of the class learn that his behaviour isn't challenged so start copying.

Absolutely fucking clueless.

As I say OP just doesn't like childcare options and the hassle of having to take their own kids to extra activities.

Personally I'd just prefer to get through the year which my kid not getting hurt, actually being able to concentrate on lessons without such disruptive kids dominating as school can't cope and that the basic school building isn't falling to bit.

As for 'stuffy classrooms' well yes - that's just it isn't it? The school buildings are a bloody state. Teaching in June in 30C is fun I'm sure. Not sure how it'd be better in August and 40C. AC would be nice... But how the fuck would schools afford that when they literally are just trying to keep a roof over the kids head?

This thread makes me bloody angry. It's entitlement seeths.

We have one of the shortest summer holidays in Europe-I can’t see it being made any shorter.

Private schools have July and August off. Their Dc seem to cope. I didn’t see school as the place for extra activities. I took Dc to loads of after school activities and they were not tired after school. Far from it. Working parents had childcare that did similar.

Primary teaching used to have mandated teaching hours. 22 infant and 25 junior I seem to remember. So 4 hours is low.

I think schools will have to work far more closely with parents and delay starting when dc don’t have basic skills. Maybe we need to get tough and have a “ready for school” pre test? - running into my bunker now! If a nursery thinks a Dc isn’t ready to progress to yr, maybe they should stay in nursery? We do let a minority disrupt the majority.

I was delighted with the curriculum my DC had at infant school. They did cooking, had a residential, did wonderful Christmas plays devised by staff, learned the recorder, had European week and did not get fed up in a classroom at all. Even with 33 in the infants class back then. As dd turned out to be good at MFL, I really regret she had 0 MFL at infant or junior but nowhere else did! We don’t value MFLs so not much will change there!

I appreciate that i could have done a better job of explaining this but this was my first post on here. Its disappointing that so many people take such a confrontational view of change.

So the funding is from the Economics and Social Research Council (ESRC) which is part of UKRI (government). The funding is put in by different government departments and in this case it comes from Treasury policy unit, DfE, DWP and a few others. Its £3.5m in total, the rest goes to fund the expert staff with the specific knowledge, academics etc. This means that its well resourced and the methodologies are sound, supervised and safe.

Ofsted would come but as its sanctioned by the DfE and Ofsted would probably be involved in the monitoring process but it would be split between the trials stream and the control stream.

I did all the organizing for this, I worked with my network to find the academics and the research, created the advocacy needed, lobbied each department for the money. Worked through the published school accounts and the NAO data and fitted the scope of the funding call into the syndicates need.

I really dont like the implication im lazy, or leaving everyone else to solve my problems.

Where did I suggest you were lazy?! That's not the issue at all.

How much input has the Head had into this. Do they actually want to do it? Do they have the capacity to see it through? Do the Governors want it? Do the parents want it?

How much input has the Head had into this. Do they actually want to do it?

This!

If you want to carry out a research project to sort your childcare problems out, I would think your number 1 priority is finding a head teacher that wants to trial this in their school. You can’t just railroad someone into doing what you want!

You seem to be very confrontational.

You pointed out that teachers are there to teach and not childcare. So you seem to agree that play/activity based learning is the gold standard for early years and primary. Then this is a continuum rather than two binary states. So whats the point?

When it comes to the staff as i have outlined then the concept was to have a similar amount of holiday to everyone else, assuming that the change was standardized then this would lead to there being no incompatibility with differential holidays (this is just something you want to force on other parents who dont work in education)

The idea of the 4 day week concept would be that more extended weekends, this is not to say its the right one. it was just one of a series of options to discuss. As i mentioned may be 6 core weeks of holidays and two weeks of personal days would be a good place to be for students and staff.

Surely the contribution here is:

1. i agree that the goverment should look at reforming the system to allow teachers to deliver a more diverse curriculum with different styles
2. I dont like change and im going to try to deflect my privileged of having a 39 week contract (at better rates of pay than for nurses on a full time and shiftwork)

I dont like change and im going to try to deflect my privileged of having a 39 week contract (at better rates of pay than for nurses on a full time and shiftwork)

Yet, despite this incredibly privileged contract and pay rate, there is still a huge recruitment and retention crisis within teaching?

You then want to make massive cuts to the amount of holiday given in the role, and invent a system requiring many more teachers, and think that somehow people will come flocking into the profession?

I dont like change and im going to try to deflect my privileged of having a 39 week contract (at better rates of pay than for nurses on a full time and shiftwork)

This is so unhelpful.

You've just turned a thread about making changes to education to improve outcomes and catch up with the current state of the world into a teacher bashing thread in one short paragraph.

Don't be that person.

When it comes to staffing its clear that this wouldnt work with the current pool of staff and more staffing might be needed. The work pattens might look different to how they are now, for example 4 day week with longer hours per shift. (nursing staff often work 3x14 hr shifts, with 3 days on and 3 days off) there are lots of options here. With these different pattens of work and more staff , this would allow for more subject specialists which could be very beneficial.

This "asumption" is backed by quite alot of evidence from scandinavia as well as the DWP's own research. Im assuming 20% of unemployed people. The point is that the revenue would also benefit for those that are under employed or cant find suitable work due to school schedule which is far greater. The total economic tax benefit is £98bn/yr and would add £300bn/yr to the economy in the short term, the medium term projections would be more a 20% boost to the economy.

DS’s state primary already has the option for children to be on site between 8am and 6pm.

Please stop comparing teachers to nurses.

You may as well compare plumbers to accountants. It's totally weird and irrelevant.