Private school AND tutors, what am I missing?

[ChocChipHandbag]

Just came back from a drinks eve with some fellow Year 1 mothers. Our children are in an independent primary that goes straight through to senior so no need to do 7+ or 11+. The school is high ranked and academic. Additional kids join at Year 3 and year 7 after doing entrance exams.

Several of the parents are paying for their kids to do extra maths with tutors. These are not kids who are behind in maths, they are the bright ones. The rationale seems to be that the 7+ kids joining in Year 3 will have been intensively tutored so the “straight through” kids need to be at the same level.

My DS is really really good at maths. Teacher says he is easily the best in the class. I kind of figured that was good enough, the school knows what it is doing and he’ll be absolutely fine in junior school. What are all these parents scared of- am I missing something here? They are not even 7, GCSEs are years away.

Yes, that makes perfect sense. Pay extra and devote evenings and weekends to keeping your child in a school that is unable to educate him or her well enough to meet its own standards…

Look you’re obviously upset about this and want a load of people online to say you’re right and they’re wrong. You’re all playing a game of privilege and yes, perhaps their children are less academically able than yours and so they will need to work harder to keep up.

These people are obviously not your friends so my suggestion is stop with the cozy meet ups and concentrate on your own family and enjoying your son’s childhood.

WTF? Where do you get all this from?

Maybe you need a tutor yourself to understand what I was asking?

OP, your ds is still very young, and this nonsense over competitive tutoring changes as they get older. In secondary, the classes are mixed up more, and it becomes less relative where your child is in a class. Tutoring is more to do with filling gaps and aiming for specific grades at that point.

Also, you're in the happy position of knowing that your child is bright and doing well. I suspect there will be a hell of a lot of tutoring of children who are in the group below your ds - they'll come home and say that a few children get to do extra maths, and then the parent will leap in and try and get their child to that level.

People do different things for different reasons. You won't know or agree with everything others do. I think it's best to stop wondering what others are 'scared of' and just keep doing what you're doing. Don't assume that they tell all the details of why they make certain decisions.

Maybe imagine a state school mum wonders what about state schools you're scared of. They don't know your thinking and they really don't need to. You do what you believe in and feel comfortable.

Another point is that, not confined to tutoring topic, just because someone is getting a certain grade, it doesn't mean their potential is achieved. That's the common mistake made with gifted children.

Private schools work their pupils harder and give them a lot more prep (homework) on a daily basis so they need to keep up.

Lots of DC sent to private schools have SEN, were bullied, are bullies, are just not that bright.

Obviously this is different at highly selective private schools but I'm not talking about those.

Anyway yes they would very much need a tutor to keep up with maths esp, English and sciences because it's very easy to fall behind.

The longer hours at school also mean they have less time to do their more enjoyable extracurricular activities and to socialise properly.

Don't think that because you're sending your DC to a private school that they're necessarily hanging out with the best and brightest because they really are not.

This is absolutely not true unless it is an academically selective school and most private schools are not

Basically if they're being tutored in maths in Yr 1 then they're just rubbish at maths at the moment because it's new to them and their parents are panicking.

If your DC can do the homework set without any help then you know they're getting it.

Also it means the parents are too busy, too lazy or too stupid to help their DC understand the maths

@HappiDaze your final sentence rings true for me. Before firmly opting for comprehensive education for our two we did go to a few open days at private schools (got swept along!). We definitely got the vibe from some chats with some parents that private was a good option because it meant they didnt have to engage with the school work at all. Which is the opposite to what many on MN say - that there is more parental engagement at private schools!

I suppose what I can’t get my head around is that exam results have a ceiling- there is no point in tutoring to above A level (or above whatever level the school is teaching each year) because they are not assessed on that anyway.*

See, this is the reason why we didn't bother with private school. I was confident that dd would do just as well in the state sector, so it would have been a waste of money.

I get that some people are paying for the fancy buildings and self-selecting peer proup, but I had no interest in either of those. I also didn't feel that the extracurricular offers were anything that couldn't easily be replicated outside of school for a fraction of the cost. So I was left wondering what the point would be for a bright child who was capable of excelling anywhere.

I guess some people decide to go private regardless, just because they can and because they still believe that it will somehow give their kids an edge, even if it isn't immediately clear as to how. And some of those will apply exactly the same logic to tutoring... they do it because they can afford it and because they think it will somehow give their kids an advantage.

If you don't want to tutor, then don't bother. It sounds like your ds is managing perfectly well without it!

So you pay for your child to go to private school and the teaching is so poor that you have to pay for a tutor on top so your child can "keep up"? (As opposed to teachers teaching to the appropriate level for your child) Private schools really have done a great job of spinning this as a positive, haven't they?

If kids are being hot-housed at that age they will potentially be missing out on social activities, relaxing and just being kids. The children I know who were are typically anxious.

Depressing behaviour to be both doing it and for them to feel they need to discuss it. Why does anyone else need to know about the decisions they make for their kids academically?

But OP look at your own comments. The teacher told you your child was top of the class in maths. Why? No teacher should be sharing that. Your child is not in competition at 7 with the other kids at their school. She could say he was doing really well, coping well with the curriculum etc. there is no need to describe how he’s doing in terms of his direct comparison with his peers.
You yourself fuel that kind of behaviour. You felt proud when the teacher said that? So much so that you share it on an anonymous forum. This is what causes all this bizarre hot housing and these poor kids suffer. I get it OP but we all have to look at ourselves too. If a teacher said that to me I’d ask them why they were describing my child’s achievement in that way.

Because next parents eve or next year if he’s number two or number three will you think he’s ‘slipping’ when in reality he’s just older, changing his interests or his strengths and has a different peer group.

@Trainsplanesandfeet perhaps look again at my posts. I have explained the context in which the comment was made, and later explained again why it was relevant to the question I asked. I did not mention it simply because I was “so proud”- this is anonymous forum, if I was going to brag about my son’s maths ability I’d do that on social media with people who know us.

The fact that you think I have mentioned it simply to brag shows that your own agenda is to ignore the actual question and home in on some reason to criticise me, which is a sad feature of pretty much every thread on Mumsnet these days.

The school is academically selective. That’s the whole point of the 7+ exam.

You are warned when your child gets in aged 4 that there is always a possibility that children who do not thrive as they move through the school may be directed towards a more suitable educational environment (or some such euphemistic wording which is code for managing out under-achievers). However it is in practice very rare for this to happen, there is not even one in every year group. They are just covering their backs contractually.

I guessed Highgate too! I know parents with kids there who were told that the 7+ entrance kids will be ahead and that parents should teach them things like multiplication because the school won’t and they will be behind the new kids. I’d be furious if I was paying fees and being told to do extra work/get a tutor! But then Highgate famously asks children to leave at 7+ and 11+ if they don’t “fit.” (It was a factor in us turning down Highgate for our DD.)

Interesting observation. Having come from state school myself where I was bullied there for doing well academically, our choice for our son was to help him have a happy school life, in smaller classes with nice facilities. I have never worried about him not reaching his academic potential, wherever he went, but I wanted that to happen in a social environment that didn’t treat being academically able as a negative thing. Our local primaries were fine but the secondary options felt all too similar to what I grew up with, so the opportunity to get into an all-through school and not have to go through the stress of the 11+ seemed like a good one to take.

It never occurred to me that I was sending him private to give him an “edge” over his peers. I wan him to have a happy school life with no bullying and no unnecessary exams. Perhaps that is where my mentality differs from that of the other school mothers. Maybe if they were privately educated themselves they feel the need to get something “more” for their child, whereas my baseline was much lower?

My DD is in state primary. She is preparing for the 11plus and independent school entranve exams. The two children who go in at the same time as her are at the local prep school. It's baffling! What is the point in paying all that money in school fees and then tutoring fees (which are not cheap!) on top? Our school doesn't prepare children for the exams (no vr, nvr or exam technique) but I assume that a Prep school (the clue is in the name!) would do so. (It's a school which only goes up to Yr6 and has no linked secondary school, so all children would need to sit entrance exams unless moving into the state sector).

@ChocChipHandbag totally agree with your last comment. We chose our school because it is a nurturing and stimulating environment where our dc are thriving. if they achieve any ‘edge’ it is due to a more enjoyable educational experience that keeps them happy and engaged, and the school’s ability to foster curiosity and a love of learning that I hope will endure.

fwiw I see less competition and striving in our independent than amongst a segment of parents at the state we started at. I am probably the only parent that ‘tutors’ in the sense that I do 10-20 mins a day extra math with mine in a structured way (in addition to other games / activities that are practice but feel like play). We started when some concerns were raised around literacy/ potential dyslexia and trying to get to the bottom of where she needed support. I realised that we practice literacy every day via reading scheme, but we’re much less consistent with math. Both my dc enjoy doing it, it has boosted their confidence and interest in math, and has given me useful insight into the different sub skills that enable mathematical thinking. I have two the same age and it is really interesting how differently they approach or understand the same basic functions.

having started this practice myself, I do understand the temptation to outsource and get a tutor because a) being available to do this is a luxury and b) it can be challenging to think of different ways to explain ‘simple’ concepts that you haven’t had to think about in 40 years.

Our very close friends have a child there in Y6 and they were never ever asked to tutor. They provided extra maths and English for them when they were struggling in Y3 and they definitely did times tables in Y2 and before. Highgate are generally working a year ahead of NT so naturally there are some kids who just can't cope. I don't think it's a case of, the school will kick them out, but really is this the school you want your child in as they may be miserable. The pace is very fast and doesn't suit everyone. They are incredibly good at spotting who will make it at 4+ but obviously that's not foolproof. There are often siblings that don't get in. The school seems very aware that this really isn't the place for kids who will struggle. That doesn't mean they don't teach well, but the breadth of things on offer mean the kids have to be sharp enough to handle the NT curriculum with ease, otherwise it'll be miserable. A lot of parents just cannot accept that that's not their child.

As far as I know, only a couple of kids left after pre prep and that's most likely because they were tutored up to their eyeballs for 4+ and or had a good day.
My comment about Highgate was more to do with the parents. Some are insane. Absolutely insane. They will tutor for the 4+ and will keep tutoring just to stay top of the class. It causes a horrible atmosphere in some maths lessons where the kids just show off about what they know and how long they've known it.

So I was left wondering what the point would be for a bright child who was capable of excelling anywhere.

Insurance.

I believe that a big part of the reason that children from well-to-do families achieve more success, not just academically, than children from poor families is that their parents can provide a back stop for them. I don't believe that the children are intrinsically more clever or otherwise different. All children can have problems and make mistakes, but those whose parents have the resources to make things better can recover and overcome problems and mistakes more easily.

OP is talking about primary school. You may think you know your child is bright and capable of excelling everywhere, but I had no confidence that I knew that when DC were 3 years old. If they turned out to be capable of excelling anywhere, perhaps I would have been better off using the money elsewhere. If they turned out to be far along the other end of the spectrum, perhaps an average private school would also have been of little value. But they were able to get places at a selective school where I knew that they would have smaller class sizes and more personal attention than in the local state schools, and where I was fairly confident that they would be in a better behaved classroom (because that's a big part of what the school selects for). These are features which I believe make it easier and more likely for average children to learn better. So my choice of private school is a form of insurance in the (likely) event that my DC aren't exceptional.

Haven't read the full thread but there seems to be an assumption that tutored kids will get bored as they are ahead. That shouldn't be happening at a private school. If the child is ahead for any reason (natural aptitude, tutoring, extra support from parents) then they will be stretched. They are likely to get put forward for interschool competitions, get asked to explain concepts to the class (great for their confidence), potentially get paired with older student buddies. Tutors can also argue that there is so much new content that the children learn in the curriculum, if they can already have prior knowledge of some topics then it gives them space for the new/tricky stuff. There is also the prospect of scholarships, which not only are financially advantageous but usually also open up other opportunities and experiences for the children.

@redskytwonight At no point did I say the teaching was substandard at private schools

There is only so much you can teach a less academic pupil was my point hence the need for a Tutor.

Parents with less academic pupils send their DC to private schools to give them a better chance to pass their GCSEs even its just with a 4 it's still a pass.

And obviously if it is an academically selective school and one parent gets a tutor then of course the rest will follow to ensure their DC doesn't get booted out as yes it is the case if they do badly at their GCSEs they will be asked to leave for their A Levels. It can get very high pressured.

Private schools tend to have Prep time after school for the pupils do do all their set homework. Or they do their sport or music etc. They then get the school bus home to the area they live in.

They get loads more homework than state schools so pupils struggling academically will do better from the sheer amount of work they get.

Smaller class, less distractions, 100% perfect behaviour is required from them. They are very strict as a rule.

Those who end going to a normal state 6th Form feel like they can breathe again no doubt