Views on tutoring prep school kids

[Tutorhelpneeded]

Background: DC is in year 3 at an academically selective prep (this wasn't planned but they've ended up there & love it). DC appears to be doing well, A/B grades in everything (average is a C), reading age of 13, above average in recent progress tests (national average is 100, DC is in the 120s so not genius material but progressing well) and most importantly loves school and is thriving.

However I have a niggle as absolutely every other family we know at the school are having their DCs tutored in one way or another (one to one tutoring, Atom learning, Kumon etc.). Some are doing this because they're worried their child isn't keeping up with the pace and starting to look ahead to common entrance, others because it's the 'done thing'.

I am against tutoring for the sake of it and frankly think the kids do enough at school and should be able to relax/play in their spare time, but on the other hand I don't want DC to be left behind.

Can I ask parents with children at similar prep schools whether you tutor and what the situation is at your school? Do I need to accept that tutoring is the norm at these schools? It's our first rodeo with private education and we're a bit baffled. Thank you.

Me too - I suspect there is bags of tutoring going on at our local, highly competitive indies. I would be livid if I were forking out £20k per year and then having to fit in tutoring to an already crammed week just to keep up.

I suspect it’s the product of highly competitive and driven parents who can’t bare for their kids not to be top in everything - it’s a perverse arms race.

Is it better in the senior schools? I can sort of see how the junior departments can get away with being a bit rubbish because people are desperate to get into the senior schools and don’t want to rock the boat - but if the senior schools are no better I’m tempted to give up now before it’s too late.

Unusual for those through schools to insist that those coming from the junior properly compete for their place at 11+/13+.

No, it's the norm. For example, UCS, Highgate, SHHS, Channing, NLCS, Habs - none of these schools make a senior place contingent on the 11+ for those from the junior branch. If they think you aren't suitable for senior, discussions start in Y4, but that is pretty unusual - very low single figures per year and often none. As an example, my child is moving from Y6 to Y7 in one of those schools - four children are leaving, all for reasons of relocation, move to state grammar for money reasons, or places at more prestigious schools.

@mycoffeecup i think the difference with DCs school is that they have several pre-preps & preps in the area/out of the area/abroad so there are far more children in the juniors than places in the (one and only) senior school. DC is at the prep directly attached to the seniors but these children aren’t given priority over children coming from the other preps, elsewhere etc.

I wondered this too. I hope that once they’ve got a place it all calms down a bit but I fear not.

How rubbish. Guess not made clear when you start or you wouldn't have gone there.

There is a huge amount of tutoring going on, despite the denials. I was amazed the first time we went through this, definition of a little bit was an hour a day from year 4 and escalating to full on days for months before the exams…then once in the desired schools back to ‘we didn’t really tutor’ I remember going into the school for something mid November and was struck by how miserable the year 6’s were, it was heartbreaking to see.

Why would be denials from the parents despite is obviously widespread? I'm preplex as usual.

Because it’s competitive, so you encourage others not to tutor, downplay it all whilst frantically having your own child tutored to get ahead! London is completely bonkers.

OK I definitely experience this phenomenon, I don't think it works though if it is widespread already, think it is probably just to do with insecurity of the parents who downplay it.

@Notmynamethistime so true. I heard no tutoring for my child, we not into super selective schools etc. Lovely, honest granny tells how parents doing etc, maths, creative writing camp 3 hours every weekend from year 3 and interest only in top 3 London all girls schools. Why lie? Why not celebrate you have a child keen to do extra work.
We found in nearer exam, lots sign up for Tiffin in Sept as free grading in your year cohort and to push for more if required.
Lots of dental appointments and child telling our kid, their teeth is fine, they were with private tutors in school day at home instead of being in school.
I agree bonkers but the dishonesty level for some is truly shocking.

Whenever was it acceptable to abdicate learning to schools and not get involved yourself???

I tutor my kids and they attend Prep, I stress I tutor them, I don't pay someone to tutor them. For others, they are less confident/lazy and/or are working like dogs to pay bills and have no time, they hand the role over.

Its never been acceptable (in my view) to expect schools to educate your children, the fees I pay for Prep are for small classes, excellent facilities, for having well stocked large library, dedicated music teaching, tennis coach etc, etc, its not to handle all educational needs of my child. That's my job.

Tutoring is no different to the parent who asks their sibling who has a senior position at ABC company to intern their sprog, i.e its providing a leg up in the savage race of opportunity.

If I’m spending £20 k a year I want my kid shitting rainbows whilst reading Jules Verne and making a decent fist of calculus in year 5, frankly, given that I expect my £20k a year to buy me, you know, actual professionally qualified teachers who are some of the best in the business….

But @Milkbottle2000 I don't think we are talking about 'abdicating'. I'm sure all of us read diligently with our kids when they were learning to read, make sure their homework gets done, are happy to do a bit extra on areas the teachers specifically pinpointed they were struggling with, and do all the other things parents are for - take them to museums, chat to them about interesting things, etc.
That's different from realising that a school's results - after already taking in a hyper selective cohort - is partly because those children are doing multiple extra hours a week and in the holidays, at very high cost (financial and time), to 'keep up.'
I don't really want the UK to become like South Korea, where every parent and kid hates the system but none of them can escape it because it's such an arms race.

“I don't really want the UK to become like South Korea, where every parent and kid hates the system but none of them can escape it because it's such an arms race.”

My limited understand of the south Korea system is that there is no 11+ test there, but big cruel A-level type of test that is all.

11+ is kind of unique thing in the UK system where there are still a large number of state grammar make sense. When most of them get converted to private or normal state schools but some left and it ends up a system neither fish nor fowl.

Noted @wtd22

Yes, I'm sure all parents are, and I take your point.

I was taking up the issue of an expectance Preps will do the work, its always been a partnership. Great Prep schools almost always interview parents before an offer as they expect parents to 'do their bit'.

Also a distinction has to be made from parents input to the cultural and academic education and simply exam and interview prep, as the two things overlap don't they.

@manontroppo

Haha! Good point, a great Prep has to provide good value, but getting their pupils into the top selective school isnt solely down to the school, just as the best senior schools can't feed your DC into a top 5 Uni alone.

Hear hear @wtd22.

With a child in Y5, and witnessing the insane levels of home prep / private tutoring going on in DD's cohort (and similarly at other prep schools where we know kids) you do start wondering how much a school's 11+ results are down to the school's teaching and how much is down to the extra hours done outside school. The London 11+ has become a ridiculous arms race and the people who suffer most are the kids. I don't know what the answer is (since you can never outlaw tutoring altogether - parents will do it even if not outsourcing) but the current system certainly isn't in the best interests of the child.

Great Prep schools almost always interview parents before an offer as they expect parents to 'do their bit'.

Really? I only knew of one prep school at 4+ that interviewed parents and I avoided it like the plague as I thought it was absurd. To my knowledge, none of the top west London girls prep schools - Glendower, Falkner, Kensington Prep, Bute - interview parents.

I agree @Milkbottle2000 that primary education in particular has to be a partnership between the school and parents, but the teaching should be done by the school. I certainly didn't sign up to £20k pa fees to employ a tutor to teach my child outside of school hours, or to do hours of home tutoring myself! And I'm pretty sure most of the parents in our cohort didn't either. Most parents seem pretty p**ed off that they're suddenly finding themselves in the 11+ arms race and having to do extra at home just to keep up with the wider London cohort (because, as the OP says, so many others are at it).

“Most parents seem pretty p**ed off that they're suddenly finding themselves in the 11+ arms race and having to do extra at home just to keep up with the wider London cohort”

Perhaps like PP said, someone are deliberately try to deny it until it is late.

I remember a very old thread in MN someone mention a very practical rule of thumb: the 11+ prep time per day should be similar to the maximum homework time the target secondary school would do outside exam times.

If the prep is not doing that enough, probably be the prep is not targeting those school afterall. Abd if mums not conformable to top up with that level, the school is probably not for them.

I don't think there is a boarding school in the top 10 that meets this description. As others have stated most senior schools with an attached prep virtually guarantee admission to the senior school. If its not WUS (which is an exception) then I think the OP is at Sevenoaks Prep which isn't actually attached to Sevenoaks Senior school formally.

I think this is much more common in prep schools than in proper through schools.

I remember a very old thread in MN someone mention a very practical rule of thumb: the 11+ prep time per day should be similar to the maximum homework time the target secondary school would do outside exam times.

I would be very wary of "very old threads" on MN. As you've pointed out countless times to parents offering advice on their experiences from 4-5 years ago, things change quickly in the 11+ world.

Even if your "very practical rule of thumb" were true (which is highly debatable) every senior school I've visited - including the superselectives - have said they have 1 hour's hw in Y7. If all kids prepping for 11+ were only working for an hour per day after school, Mon-Fri, I don't think anyone would blink an eye. But many are doing significantly more than that (including, I believe, your own child last year from what you've said on other threads).

Like I say, I accept that others are doing this level of work. I just don't think it's good for the kids. And the idea that a senior school "isn't right" for a child if the parents don't want to flog their child for 10-15 hours extra a week (or more) outside of school is patently absurd. As has been discussed many times on MN, the counter argument is almost certainly true - if you have to work your child that hard to get them over the line, it's almost certainly the wrong school for them.

But many are doing significantly more than that (including, I believe, your own child last year from what you've said on other threads) - Below link can remind what I said last year exactly , definitely not significant higher. I also mentioned this is the average level I know targeting to top schools (very large sample size)
So yes at least half are doing more..

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4804140-could-any-child-get-into-sw-london-grammars-with-tutoring?reply=126194709

"the counter argument is almost certainly true - if you have to work your child that hard to get them over the line, it's almost certainly the wrong school for them."

When majority of the children get to the school with the similar kind of prep effort, such counter argument won't work anymore.

The right link
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4723610-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023?page=19&reply=123329581

And home work time in top secondary definitely more now than few years ago.